Pets or food?

[Secret Chief]

you keep the milk, cheese and all the yummy stuff in; animals are not killed for it

That is the simple sentiment I used to believe. If one researches the topic one discovers the true picture of the lives and deaths of animals in the dairy industry. Here's a starter: the cows are kept pregnant as often as possible: find out what happens to the male calves they give birth to. (Hint: it's the same fate as male chicks in the egg industry).

 

[stvdv]

That is the simple sentiment I used to believe. If one researches the topic one discovers the true picture of the lives and deaths of animals in the dairy industry.

(though they are "milked" of course).

I am very aware of this, as I showed in above reply. But I am also aware that humans generally can't change everything overnight. Taking out meat+milkproducts at once or giving them guilt feelings is not a smart nor nice thing to do, hence my reply. And I know from personal experience it's not easy, and it took me quite a while to stop it, so I will not advise others to change too drastically. Hence my reply to keep the milkproducts. All at it's own time.

 

[Secret Chief]

I am very aware of this, as I showed in above reply. But I am also aware that humans generally can't change everything overnight. Taking out meat+milkproducts at once or giving them guilt feelings is not a smart nor nice thing to do, hence my reply. And I know from personal experience it's not easy, and it took me quite a while to stop it, so I will not advise others to change too drastically. Hence my reply to keep the milkproducts. All at it's own time.

My post was in response to yours of course, but was not directed at yourself or indeed anyone specifically. If things like I posted never get said then people (such as myself) would otherwise remain in ignorance of the true situation. I'm not trying to give anyone guilt feelings.

 

[Spirit of Light]

South Koreans debate dog meat (just talk, no images)

I think I can see where most here will probably side, given that few would ever see dogs as anything other than pets and/or being more useful to us alive (or in just having a right to live), but what does one make of the argument that pigs are likely more intelligent than dogs and yet often we feel no regrets whilst eating them?

Any comments on this video or anything else to do with eating those species that most probably wouldn't ever feel comfortable eating.

I don't pet my food, and I don't eat my pet

 

[Tambourine]

I don't eat any animals to begin with.
Frankly I find the line that people draw between "animals for companionship" and "animals for food" to be completely arbitrary.

Where I grew up it wasn't unusual to eat rabbit or horse meat, and they are still considered somewhat of a delicacy, yet these days people raise rabbits as pets and ride horses for fun.

People have domesticated animals for food and work, and I suspect that which got chosen for which task was often a question of practicality and cultural upbringing, and I would argue that these beliefs of "companionship" and "loyalty" we now have of certain kinds of animals are rationalizations after the fact.

 

[Tambourine]

How many cows have you raised as pets?

I know people who have kept pigs, rabbits, or ducks as pets.

I used to know a guy who had a pet iguana, and another who kept pet spiders.

Heck, when I was little, I used to raise snails and caterpillars with my dad.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Any comments on this video or anything else to do with eating those species that most probably wouldn't ever feel comfortable eating.

I don't like the idea of eating dogs or cats, they seem to be the traditional human allies, aiding us and cuddling us

Pigs, I'm not sure. I think maybe it depends on what kind. A wild boar seems like it might be more on the potentially ferocious end, won't they sometimes even eat livestock?

Nonetheless, I think the wild boar might have been one of wild animals that many early animists respected, more often than not. It seems that they showed up on coins in early celtic culture, and figured in folktales as sating hunger. In reading about the celtic god Moccus, this hog god seems to get the high station as provider and protector. I sometimes play a folk song on banjo called 'wild hog in the woods,' which comes to america from britain as an article of ancient hunting folklore. In thinking about it, the song's story seems to pit the man against the animal in what seems to be a respectable way at least, where 'bangum' is facing it down with a mere 'wooden knife.' In such a situation, the boar is surely given a fair chance to succeed against the man, right?

As a younger person, I remember the farm from ma's family sometimes had a few pigs. One you could scratch on the side, and he'd fall down to get a stomach rub. You had to watch your feet when it did that, otherwise they'd get crushed. With some other ones, I think they fed them on fish guts or something after fishing contests

 

[Secret Chief]

Frankly I find the line that people draw between "animals for companionship" and "animals for food" to be completely arbitrary.

I agree. The guinea pig pet in Europe is the cavy meat in South America.

 

[Mock Turtle]

So, you keep the milk, cheese and all the yummy stuff in; animals are not killed for it (though they are "milked" of course). Sai Baba told me a few years ago to go vegan, but I still eat milkproducts. But I knew why He told me, for weak kidneys milk products are not good (excess protein, and cheese is too salty for me) and too much fat for me even. So gradually I reduce (the middle way I have to learn too). And one day it becomes naturally to give it up. It's all about awareness IMO...I should watch daily those horror youtubes about how horrible they mistreat animals

Well I doubt we can be consistent in all aspects of our lives - I try to be but I'm not sure it is possible anyway. We all have to compromise to some extent, although being a vegetarian for me wouldn't take much - other than being a lot more picky with my meals. And you are right - about the treatment of animals, especially the more popular ones, like chickens, pigs, and others. That does make me feel a bit guilty.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I don't eat any animals to begin with.
Frankly I find the line that people draw between "animals for companionship" and "animals for food" to be completely arbitrary.

Where I grew up it wasn't unusual to eat rabbit or horse meat, and they are still considered somewhat of a delicacy, yet these days people raise rabbits as pets and ride horses for fun.

People have domesticated animals for food and work, and I suspect that which got chosen for which task was often a question of practicality and cultural upbringing, and I would argue that these beliefs of "companionship" and "loyalty" we now have of certain kinds of animals are rationalizations after the fact.

Well my childhood was after WWII, and I remember having rabbit. Made a change I suppose (and quite nice) but my mum seems to have managed even with all the rationing then. I suspect the newer generations will tend to steer away from animal meat, because of all the inhumane reasons given and the awareness that many or most species deserve to live their own lives without us treating them as commodities.

 

[stvdv]

Well I doubt we can be consistent in all aspects of our lives - I try to be but I'm not sure it is possible anyway. We all have to compromise to some extent, although being a vegetarian for me wouldn't take much - other than being a lot more picky with my meals. And you are right - about the treatment of animals, especially the more popular ones, like chickens, pigs, and others. That does make me feel a bit guilty.

I try to be but I'm not sure it is possible anyway.

When I make a plan to do something, many times I end up doing the opposite. I heard someone say once "You know how you can make God laugh?"......tell Him your plans. God must have had a blast, for all the plans I made, and which I failed to follow through.

And you are right - about the treatment of animals, especially the more popular ones, like chickens, pigs, and others. That does make me feel a bit guilty.

For me it became easy to stick to vegetarian food, because I have had many experiences that animals interacted with me, with huge understanding and empathy; more than most humans even. That made me realize that animals indeed have a soul, and are very sensitive. They show love and affection. The more I became aware of this, the more I really did not want to eat animals anymore.

Once my neighbor, who broke her back, asked me to do some shopping for her. I said yes, but then she asked me to bring her chicken. That felt bad. But then I thought "she broke her back, so I will do it, and if God does not approve, he should give a good sign". I walked to the shop (8 km back and forth), and I walked past a meadow with lots of sheep and lambs. They all ran towards me, and they allowed me touching them. Then I continued to the shop, bought the chicken and returned. When I came close to the meadow, the sheep started running away, as far as they could. Never again will I go to a shop to buy animal food; wonderful experience.

A few month afterwards there was a Christian healer, and I told my neighbor "Go there, Jesus will heal you". She did not believe, but I continued bugging her with it, until she went. She got cured. So, she need not ask me again to buy her food.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

South Koreans debate dog meat (just talk, no images)

I think I can see where most here will probably side, given that few would ever see dogs as anything other than pets and/or being more useful to us alive (or in just having a right to live), but what does one make of the argument that pigs are likely more intelligent than dogs and yet often we feel no regrets whilst eating them?

Any comments on this video or anything else to do with eating those species that most probably wouldn't ever feel comfortable eating.

I oppose eating dogs because we did not domesticate dogs as livestock. They were the first species we domesticated and humans have formed a unique relationship with dogs that is different from our relationships with other species, over tens of thousands of years. Dogs have become uniquely tuned to human behaviour. So to eat them seems barbarous. I have no idea why or how a minority of cultures came to view them as food, but it's really an aberration compared to most of the world. Thankfully, such a thing is banned throughout most of the West.

 

[Mock Turtle]

When I make a plan to do something, many times I end up doing the opposite. I heard someone say once "You know how you can make God laugh?"......tell Him your plans. God must have had a blast, for all the plans I made, and which I failed to follow through.


For me it became easy to stick to vegetarian food, because I have had many experiences that animals interacted with me, with huge understanding and empathy; more than most humans even. That made me realize that animals indeed have a soul, and are very sensitive. They show love and affection. The more I became aware of this, the more I really did not want to eat animals anymore.

Once my neighbor, who broke her back, asked me to do some shopping for her. I said yes, but then she asked me to bring her chicken. That felt bad. But then I thought "she broke her back, so I will do it, and if God does not approve, he should give a good sign". I walked to the shop (8 km back and forth), and I walked past a meadow with lots of sheep and lambs. They all ran towards me, and they allowed me touching them. Then I continued to the shop, bought the chicken and returned. When I came close to the meadow, the sheep started running away, as far as they could. Never again will I go to a shop to buy animal food; wonderful experience.

A few month afterwards there was a Christian healer, and I told my neighbor "Go there, Jesus will heal you". She did not believe, but I continued bugging her with it, until she went. She got cured. So, she need not ask me again to buy her food.

Interesting stuff. I think if one either has a pet or has had a pet in the past then one probably knows that they do have distinct personalities and that there is a lot going on inside rather than them just being instinctual creatures, even if many cling to this notion. I think one only has to look at the wide range of animals that have had bonds with humans, perhaps some from imprinting, but so many seem to be voluntary and genuine, and over long periods, so as to see that they probably form as good a bond with other creatures as we do with fellow humans. I just think that in a few decades our understanding will change, and then hopefully our attitude towards other creatures too.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I oppose eating dogs because we did not domesticate dogs as livestock. They were the first species we domesticated and humans have formed a unique relationship with dogs that is different from our relationships with other species, over tens of thousands of years. Dogs have become uniquely tuned to human behaviour. So to eat them seems barbarous. I have no idea why or how a minority of cultures came to view them as food, but it's really an aberration compared to most of the world. Thankfully, such a thing is banned throughout most of the West.

Totally agree. I can't understand how they would have started eating them unless they never formed any kind of bond with them. I think in some countries they eat cats, and the same applies really - them being as much useful to us as being companions.

 

[Secret Chief]

I suspect the newer generations will tend to steer away from animal meat, because of all the inhumane reasons given and the awareness that many or most species deserve to live their own lives without us treating them as commodities.

Living in the UK it is easy to come round to that idea, especially in the last year or so, but globally the picture is somewhat different, unfortunately:

"Global demand for meat is growing: over the past 50 years, meat production has more than quadrupled. The world now produces more than 320 million tonnes each year."

"In 2018, an estimated 69 billion chickens; 1.5 billion pigs; 656 million turkeys; 574 million sheep; 479 million goats; and 302 million cattle were killed for meat production."

- Meat and Dairy Production

 

[Father Heathen]

It's one thing if the meat was harvested in a quick, humane manner, but some cultures purportedly believe that pain and fear make the meat tastier, and thus are extremely cruel to the animals before and during butchering them.

 

[stvdv]

Living in the UK it is easy to come round to that idea, especially in the last year or so, but globally the picture is somewhat different, unfortunately:

"Global demand for meat is growing: over the past 50 years, meat production has more than quadrupled. The world now produces more than 320 million tonnes each year."

- Meat and Dairy Production

Last year I saw a YouTube and an African man said that 2020 will be the year of vegetarianism. I never thought about that. Would be nice I thought. And it's easy to check if he is right, I just need to wait a few month.

January 2020 I noticed that suddenly in all the supermarkets they had all kinds of vegetarian products...it kind of quadrupled I think. And in the Albert Heijn supermarket they even put all nice labels on the vegetarian and vegan products. Never before that happened in the supermarkets in Holland.

So, the African man seem to have had it right, at least in Holland there is a big shift.

And in the newspapers they had a big article that it would be better for us to eat vegetarian food. So there is finally a shift happening here. But it might take a few generations, before your info "320 million tonnes each year" comes down

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I oppose eating dogs because we did not domesticate dogs as livestock. They were the first species we domesticated and humans have formed a unique relationship with dogs that is different from our relationships with other species, over tens of thousands of years. Dogs have become uniquely tuned to human behaviour. So to eat them seems barbarous. I have no idea why or how a minority of cultures came to view them as food, but it's really an aberration compared to most of the world. Thankfully, such a thing is banned throughout most of the West.

Our ancestors ate dogs too. From as West as Inca and Aztec and Inca and Hawaiian and other Polynesisn islands, to as North as Switzerland and Nordic to as East as Korea. There are a number of dog breeds which were for meat and tallow (early candles were made with dog fat).

The thing that took dog meat off the plate in most of the world was Abrahamic culture. (Ditto horses.)

And really the ban on dog meat in the West has the thinnest of justification. Dogs aren't smarter or more emotionally intelligent than the things we already eat. We just like them more culturally. No different than the ban on cows in other parts of the world.

 

[Father Heathen]

You see the same things with cows once you start working with them. They're social, affectionate, can view you as a herd mate. They're just not what our culture and psychology seem cute.

Notice that I never mentioned anything about appearance, but rather traits like trust, loyalty, love, empathy, etc.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Living in the UK it is easy to come round to that idea, especially in the last year or so, but globally the picture is somewhat different, unfortunately:

"Global demand for meat is growing: over the past 50 years, meat production has more than quadrupled. The world now produces more than 320 million tonnes each year."

"In 2018, an estimated 69 billion chickens; 1.5 billion pigs; 656 million turkeys; 574 million sheep; 479 million goats; and 302 million cattle were killed for meat production."

- Meat and Dairy Production

Yep, too true.