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Featured Paul's Dung.

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by rrobs, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it matters too much that you brought up the Hindu religion. I think more things in these forums are off topic than on. That's what I've noticed anyway.

    First, I want to be clear that I'm not trying to convert you or anybody else. I do speak the Word, but people do whatever they want with it. It's not my concern. So, please don't take me as preaching to you. I'm just showing you what the book says. You seem like an intelligent person, so you can make up your own mind.

    I'm not sure where you got your knowledge of the Bible, but if you are like most folks, Christians and non-Christians alike, it came from the churches. All I can tell you is that 90% of what churches teach is tradition and really has little resemblance to the actual Bible. I don't blame someone one bit for rejecting much of what spews from pulpits across the country every Sunday morning. I used to try and understand what they said. Not much of it made sense and certainly didn't do anything for me.

    One day I met someone who started showing me things from the Bible that I never heard in church or religion class (I went to Catholic school for 12 years, one hour of religion, five days a week). Very few, and I do mean very few, really know what the Bible says. Like I said, most Christians have been tricked into following tradition which the Bible itself says makes God's word useless.

    One day the religious leaders of Jesus' time castigated Jesus because his disciples didn't wash their hands before eating. To them that was a mortal offense. But God never actually told them anything like that. They just made it up and it was followed so long that nobody questioned it. It was accepted as God's commandment without question. Anyway, this is Jesus' reply to the illustrious religious leaders of the day:

    Matt 15:3,

    But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
    Then Jesus told them,

    Matt 15:6,

    ...Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
    Sad to say, not much has changed in the churches of today. Still teaching tradition over truth. Their brainwashing has pretty much made God's word of no effect. Still, God's Word is alive and well. There are not a small number (and growing) who have rejected church doctrine in favor of the Bible. So while it may be somewhat hard to find someone with a genuine knowledge of the Bible, free from church tradition, it is in no way impossible.

    Take care...
     
  2. OtherSheep

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    Jeremiah 31:33 For this [is] the Covenant that I make, With the House of Israel, after those days, An affirmation of Jehovah, I have given My Law in their inward part, And on their heart I do write it, And I have been to them for God, And they are to Me for a people. 34 And they do not teach any more Each his neighbour, and each his brother, Saying, Know ye Jehovah, For they all know Me, from their least unto their greatest, An affirmation of Jehovah; For I pardon their iniquity, And of their sin I make mention no more.


    The Question At Hand

    2Tim 3:16,
    All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    or
    2Pet 1:20,
    Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.


    Holy Prophet of God

    34:10 And there hath not arisen a prophet any more in Israel like Moses, whom Jehovah hath known face unto face,

    Deuteronomy
    12:32 The whole thing which I am commanding you -- it ye observe to do; thou dost not add unto it, nor diminish from it.


    The Rules of Prophecy, true and false

    13:1 `When there ariseth in your midst a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he hath given unto thee a sign or wonder, 2 and the sign and the wonder hath come which he hath spoken of unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods (which thou hast not known), and serve them, 3 thou dost not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of the dream, for Jehovah your God is trying you, to know whether ye are loving Jehovah your God with all your heart, and with all your soul; 4 after Jehovah your God ye walk, and Him ye fear, and His commands ye keep, and to His voice ye hearken, and Him ye serve, and to Him ye cleave.

    32:16 They make Him zealous with strangers, With abominations they make Him angry. 17 They sacrifice to demons -- no god! Gods they have not known -- New ones -- from the vicinity they came; Not feared them have your fathers!

    1 Corinthians 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;


    Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
    21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery* with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

    ____________
    *The Greek word is also apostacy... which is the correct choice. If y'all hadn't been told that new gods were something worth pursuing, you would never have had anything to do with getting rid of Moses the Prophet. Now, God tells you to Come out of her, My people. Because the woman cast onto the bed has a new name: Babylon, woman full of mysteries.
     
  3. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Excellent verses! Who can argue with God? Thanks...
     
  4. OtherSheep

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    Apparently you can, via Paul's d... er... apostacy.

    I'd frankly be amazed if you changed your current mindset about Saul of Tarsus.
     
  5. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Well, I think his statement in Leviticus 15:19 that

    19 “If a woman has a discharge from her monthly time of bleeding, she will be unclean for seven days. Anyone who touches her will be unclean until evening.
    is disputable.

    .
     
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    So in your view, the snake is, what, an extra human? A spirit from God? It must be one or the other, no?

    Since the Garden story never mentions disobedience, sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, spiritual death or the need for a redeemer ─ since the notion that the child can inherit guilt for the sin of a parent is expressly and at length rejected in Ezekiel 18 eg Ezekiel 18:20 ─ I've wondered what the story is about. It will fit as an analogy about the childhood of mankind (the Garden), adolescence (awareness of nakedness) and maturity / self-sufficiency (leaving home); that at least has the advantage of not requiring us to think humans are descended from a gene pool of two living in historical times.

    Does that sound unreasonable to you?
     
    #86 blü 2, Jul 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  7. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    As an agnostic I would expect the whole Bible is disputable to you.
     
  8. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Nah. I read the Bible and associated commentaries by Oxford and Cambridge. Then read about books on historical Jesus and Pauline theology from EP Sanders, James Dunn etc, Geza Vermes etc. Other than that I have attended a Bible reading group off and on for about 7 years during my college days in USA. I was part of interfaith student group and it was part of my effort to learn about one of the Abrahamic religion.

    I have rarely been to church. Its more of a Christian worship going on there and I sense nothing there. Also I prefer more interactive environment than a guy sermonizing at a crowd.
     
  9. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

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    In other words... my observation is correct.
     
  10. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Not really. And it's nice to see you have no argument with my assessment that Leviticus 15:19 is disputable; god can be wrong. But of course he admits as much in the Bible itself.

    .

    .
     
  11. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Now I understand you to say that the whole Bible is not necessarily disputable, only some parts.
    How do you decide which parts are indisputable and which parts are disputable?
     
  12. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    So, if I understand you correctly, in your response to
    blü 2, you're saying when it says a snake in Genesis it doesn't mean that Eve thought she was talking to a snake, it means Eve thought she was talking with some fellow, but the text is cluing us in that the fellow was a bad guy.... in your view, the devil.
     
  13. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Well, those that are in align with historical facts are acceptable, eg. Jerusalem existed in Biblical times; as well as incidents of an ordinary nature. " Caleb was Hezron’s son." I have no reason to debate either. However, unreasonable claims such as the existence of the Garden of Eden, and incidents such as the Great Flood, and god creating all current 33,525,435 species in the world as is, are all fodder for debate. So are the interpreted claims that are often made, such as god is good because the Bible says he is, or god never makes mistakes.

    .
     
  14. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I think a good rule of thumb in researching the Bible is to take it literately wherever and whenever possible. Otherwise, look for a figure of speech. Figures of speech are a legitimate tool of grammar used to emphasize something. If I said, "the ground is dry" you could take it literally . However, if I said, "the ground is thirsty" you would not take that literally because people get thirsty, not dirt. By saying it is thirsty I would be grabbing your attention a bit more than just saying it is dry. It makes the reader pause and consider what was said. There are over 200 different types of figures of speech used in the Bible, including similes, idioms, metaphors, etc. Here is a good list: http://thevisualcommunicationguy.com/rhetoric-overview/figures-of-speech-official-list/

    Snakes don't talk, they never have and probably never will, so that should be a huge clue that God was using a figure of speech. It wouldn't make sense that a literal snake was talking and, contrary to what many folks think, the Bible does make sense when properly understood. Understanding figures of speech is essential in Biblical research. It's really no different than pretty much everything we read or hear on a day to day basis. We all recognize when someone is using a figure of speech in normal conversation.

    A very popular category of figures of speech are idioms. The Jews used many idioms in Biblical times.
    Here is a good list: http://www.mayimhayim.org/Hebrew Perspectives/Biblical Idioms.RX5.htm
     
  15. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    @rrobs -

    Just so I'm clear on what you're positing, to your understanding -
    1) Eve was not in conversation with an actual talking serpent;
    2) Eve was not in conversation with someone or something in a serpent disguise;
    3) Eve was not in conversation with someone or something that was manipulating a real serpent like a ventriloquist's dummy;
    4) Eve was in conversation with someone or something that looked like something other than serpent and the text is simply using figurative language to let us know that this entity is not on the up and up.

    Is that an accurate summary?
     
  16. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I would have to say yes, with the following reservation; in point (4) she was talking to someone as opposed to something. Furthermore I would say she was talking to someone who was quite charismatic, intelligent, handsome, charming, affable, etc.

    2Cor 11:14,

    And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.​
     
  17. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    I agree except for one thing. There's no place for interpreting the scriptures 2 Peter 1:20-21. Instead we need to seek the original intent of the Bible authors.
     
  18. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    True enough. After all, the Bible wasn't written in New York or LA last year! The times and culture have changed just a wee bit since the Bible was written.

    Fortunately, today we have tons of readily available materials that will help us see what popped in the mind of the ancient Hebrew when he read the scrolls. It just takes a bit of work, but aren't we supposed to be workers of the word?

    2Tim 2:15,

    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​

    It's one of the best jobs anyone could hope for!
     
  19. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

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    Very true.

    Let me know what you think of my two threads on this subject.
    https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/exegetical-tool.180459/#post-4452111

    https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/another-exegetical-tool.192587/#post-4955336
     
  20. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I think I see what you are saying now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you are inferring that I used exegesis? If I'm right on that, could you explain where I'm doing that.

    I've always taken 1 Peter 1:20-21 as saying it is no one individual's prerogative to give their own interpretation. That leaves two possibilities, either there is no interpretation or it interprets itself. I believe in the latter of those two possibilities.

    Most of the Bible is pretty straight forward and simply says what it means. Sometimes context is required to see the true meaning. Yet other times it may be necessary to see how some word or phrase was used elsewhere. Understanding the culture sure helps in some parts of the scriptures. A few other things, but nothing we don't do when reading pretty much anything we read, from the Daily News to the latest Harry Potter book (is he still around?). Of course with the Bible we get the help of God's wonderful gift to each of us, i.e. holy spirit. You don't need holy spirit to read Harry Potter, but you do for the Bible. It says that somewhere in there.
     
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