Paul's Dung.

[rrobs]

Paul taught an entirely new religion, based upon mysteries and deep things. A religion entirely different from the faith of his fathers. Saul of Tarsus dismissed as dung, the religion that would be telling us how to know who is a false prophet.

I think you are saying Paul is a fraud, that he made up his own religion. What does the Bible say about him?

Rom 1:1-5,

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
​

Rom 11:13,

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:​

1Cor 1:1,

Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,​

2Cor 1:1,

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:​

There are many more, but that should suffice to show that Paul was an Apostle, which is someone who bring good news. So it's either your opinion that's true, or God's word.

Why is it so hard to understand that after Jesus died, rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven things changed? What the heck did he do all that for? If you really want to know the answer to those questions, study the New Testament. Get over the truth that God chose Paul to announce the new doctrine and just believe it. It's that simple.

 

[rrobs]

It seems Paul was of the opinion that 'if you aren't with me, then you are against me'.

Every word Paul wrote in the church epistles was inspired by God. So it's really God who says, 'If you aren't with me, then you are against me." If you're at all familiar with the book which we are discussing (the Bible) you shouldn't have too much trouble finding something just like that in there. If you are not that familiar with it though, you may consider getting familiar with it before discussing it any further.

 

[sojourner]

Canon is the whole problem. And to let the man who tossed out the First Testament tell us that all scripture is God-inspired is the definition of lunacy.

Why do you think canon is a problem, and who told us to toss out the Hebrew texts?

 

[OtherSheep]

There is basically one requirement to learn about God, and it's not a degree from Yale.

Matt 5:6,

Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.​

The folks with the degrees tend to have too much academia floating around in their heads which makes them unable to see the simplicity of God's word.

1Cor 1:23-28

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock​

It doesn't take a degree from Yale... we agree with that one thing.

Sheep Who Hear Jesus' Voice

Jesus tells us what the stumbling block is really all about
... including who murdered Him and why they murdered Him.

21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill Him, and let us seize on His inheritance.
21:39 And they caught Him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him].
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spake of them.

What better way to steal Jesus' inheritance than to mis-lead His sheep?

Verses in Context:

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up My people [as] they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.(Psalm 14)

The without-law children of men, against the followers of the God's Law.
Because God calls many men righteous, and they all follow the Law.

The Kingdom Gospel is like the Mosaic Law on steroids: It not only judges
your actions, it judges your heart before the action ever takes place.

 

[sojourner]

I said the Bible would be worthless if both Ephesians and Colossians are doubtful, which is what I understood you to say. Somebody else might say the the Gospel of John is a fraud. Actually there are people who say that very thing. So now we have 3 books in the Bible that are purported fraud. Are there any others? I'm sure you could find someone, a scholar probably, who would say that Revelations is fake. On and on it goes. So if all that is true, why bother with it? That's what would make it worthless.

I didn’t say they were doubtful, or fraud. I said that the authorship is not known — just like the gospels. Pseudonymous and anonymous =/= “fraud.”

 

[rrobs]

We have one witness to the conversion on Damascus road... Saul.

Acts 9:7,

And the men which journeyed with him [Paul] stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
​

Then there is this:

Acts 9:10-15,

10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.
11 And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:​

 

[OtherSheep]

Every word Paul wrote in the church epistles was inspired by God.

Who says "inspired by God" besides Paul?

 

[OtherSheep]

Why do you think canon is a problem, and who told us to toss out the Hebrew texts?

Paul, and Paul.

 

[rrobs]

It doesn't take a degree from Yale... we agree with that one thing.

Sheep Who Hear Jesus' Voice

Jesus tells us what the stumbling block is really all about
... including who murdered Him and why they murdered Him.

21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill Him, and let us seize on His inheritance.
21:39 And they caught Him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him].
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spake of them.

What better way to steal Jesus' inheritance than to mis-lead His sheep?

Verses in Context:

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up My people [as] they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.(Psalm 14)

The without-law children of men, against the followers of the God's Law.
Because God calls many men righteous, and they all follow the Law.

The Kingdom Gospel is like the Mosaic Law on steroids: It not only judges
your actions, it judges your heart before the action ever takes place.

Are you saying our righteousness comes by following the law? I think so, but maybe I misunderstand. Either way, I offer the following:

Rom 3:20-22,

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
​

That's why Jesus died and was raised from the dead, so that we could be righteous. Verse 22 actually says we are as righteous as God himself.

​

 

[rrobs]

Who says "inspired by God" besides Paul?

So are you saying that we should just get rid of Paul's letters? How about the things Moses wrote? Should we still keep them? You know what, I never liked Matthew. Let's deep six his gospel. And that Ezekiel guy! What a looser. Get rid of him too. And while we're at it, let's cut out Isaiah. Nothing he says makes any sense. If we keep going, what are we left with? Oh, I know; we can learn all about God from OtherSheep. Not!

 

[rrobs]

I didn’t say they were doubtful, or fraud. I said that the authorship is not known — just like the gospels. Pseudonymous and anonymous =/= “fraud.”

The scholars may have their theories as to who wrote Ephesians and Colossians, but God has His own ideas on the matter.

Eph 1:1,

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
​

Col 1:1,

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus [our] brother,
​

It just depends on who one wants to believe.

 

[rrobs]

sojourner said:
Why do you think canon is a problem, and who told us to toss out the Hebrew texts?

Paul, and Paul.

Neither God nor Paul said to "toss out" the Hebrew texts, and they are the experts.

Rom 15:4,

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
​

The things written afore-time (the OT) give us learning, patience, comfort, and hope. That's pretty good.

However, what the Hebrew texts did not do for us was to make us righteous in God's eyes. Being made righteous came by another avenue altogether and that would be grace.

Rom 8:3-4,

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

Those verses are not complicated. They simply say exactly what they mean. One either believes them or not.

 

[rrobs]

Who says "inspired by God" besides Paul?

2Tim 3:16,

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
​

If you want to get rid of this verse, I vote to ax John 3:16. Let's see if anybody else here wants to get rid of a verse or two, or even a whole book.

 

[sojourner]

Paul, and Paul.

I don’t recall Paul throwing out the Hebrew texts. Where does he do that? And how is Paul a problem where the canon is concerned?

 

[sojourner]

2Tim 3:16,

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
​

If you want to get rid of this verse, I vote to ax John 3:16. Let's see if anybody else here wants to get rid of a verse or two, or even a whole book.

Paul probably didn’t write either Timothy or Titus, either. Happily, he didn’t need to, in order for the texts to be valid.

 

[sojourner]

The scholars may have their theories as to who wrote Ephesians and Colossians, but God has His own ideas on the matter.

Eph 1:1,

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
​

Col 1:1,

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus [our] brother,
​

It just depends on who one wants to believe.

Where does this say, “God said?” It was very common in those times for authors to write in someone else’s name. That person may have been a student or other associate. Sorry, pulling the “God trump card” in this instance doesn’t cut the mustard. Your belief doesn’t trump scholarship. Personally, I believe scholars over your belief in “divine authorship.” It just makes more sense to go with the evidence we have, rather than a lack of the same.

 

[OtherSheep]

Acts 9:7

9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought [him] into Damascus.
22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth,

Who told the author of Acts what happened to Paul, other than Paul?
Wouldn't the men with Paul testify re: the light and the voice?
Could the blind men lead the blind Paul to Damascus?

 

[rrobs]

I don’t recall Paul throwing out the Hebrew texts. Where does he do that? And how is Paul a problem where the canon is concerned?

Paul probably didn’t write either Timothy or Titus, either. Happily, he didn’t need to, in order for the texts to be valid.

I'm a little confused by what you are saying. At first I thought you were saying that the things written in Romans through Thessalonians were not true because Paul wrote them and therefore had no place in the scriptures. Now I'm thinking maybe your are saying that the books themselves are OK, but that Paul didn't write them.

As the the former, I simply say they are true and they do have a place in the scriptures. The latter I would answer by saying that all the church epistles start out by explicitly saying they were from Paul. So if, as I tend to think you are saying, they were not written by Paul, then whoever did write them was a liar. They apparently were afraid to state their true identity. If that is true, what other lies did they write?

If we are to use the Bible as our sole reference of truth, it is important that we get this straight.

 

[OtherSheep]

Revelations

At least get the title right, before tossing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[rrobs]

Where does this say, “God said?” It was very common in those times for authors to write in someone else’s name. That person may have been a student or other associate. Sorry, pulling the “God trump card” in this instance doesn’t cut the mustard. Your belief doesn’t trump scholarship. Personally, I believe scholars over your belief in “divine authorship.” It just makes more sense to go with the evidence we have, rather than a lack of the same.

OK. I understand you to not take the scriptures as truth. I do. What more can we say to each other?

We could talk about sports if you want, or any other subject you may want to discuss, but let's just drop any further Bible talk.