Pastor Sentenced For Hate Speech

[Heyo]

Good to be in a country where where ones open opinions are protected then. Their problem actually, and weither people want to do something about it or not is entirely up to them.

Their loss as far as I'm concerned.

You have a right to your own opinion - but not to your own facts.

You can avoid most libel actions by clearly stating that you are expressing an opinion. It won't always help you with hate speech, the judge would have to determine if your speech was intended or suitable to incite hate but it would be a mitigating factor.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I think of Westboro Baptist here in the states.

Arguably the most hated church in the US, but people recognize their free speech protections and the value those protections bring.

They are the perfect example actually. Many other groups also spew hate, but sugar coat it in a lot of rhetoric. An example is some Christians saying "we don't hate people. We just support God's laws", which basically means that they support God's view that certain people, like gay people, are abominations.

But, the best approach is not to ban them, which also entrenches their bigoted beliefs by confirming their persecution complex, but to reason with them using rhetoric to change their minds and debunk their beliefs. I used to be bigoted but am not so much anymore because of discussion on this forum for instance.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think of Westboro Baptist here in the states.

Arguably the most hated church in the US, but people recognize their free speech protections and the value those protections bring.

Well being a literal family of trained lawyers likely helps them too. Perhaps even more than free speech laws, arguably.
I have an alternate theory however. The WBC are so out there, so filled of with obvious bat**** insanity that people either dismiss them out of hand or find them more amusing than threatening, so leave them alone.
It’s like that Alex Jones guy. He’s so hilarious that I would gladly fight for his right to free speech, for the entertainment value alone.

 

[Estro Felino]

Ok...I will speak of my country.
In Italy there is a Catholic radio station called Radio Maria where the host is a very conservative Catholic who has been saying similar things about homosexuality. For 35 years. Of course he never uses homosexuals as subject in a phrase because he says he condemns the sin...not the sinner.
I recall listening to it. Listening to Father Livio saying that homosexuality is an abomination or stuff like that.
Or Pope Benedict once said that homosexuality is the eclypse (the annihilation) of God.

This Pastor could have used less harsh words to make a point. He maybe crossed the line...and he probably would have got no fine.

 

[Heyo]

He maybe crossed the line...and he probably would have got no fine.

Because of free speech rights or because of religious freedom rights?
(Or because no judge would dare to go against the RCC?)

 

[Estro Felino]

Because of free speech rights or because of religious freedom rights?
(Or because no judge would dare to go against the RCC?)

We have lots of judges who would enjoy victimizing the Vatican...the truth is that in Italy the politically correct doesn't exist...and newspapers are allowed to say anything about minorities.
As I said before, the private law here configures the hedonic damage exclusively when a specific physical person is defamed...and not a generic impersonal group.

 

[blü 2]

A pastor in Bremen has been sentenced to pay € 8,100 for homophobic hate speech.

German source: Hetze ist verboten – auch von der Kanzel: Keine Gnade für Pastor Hass
English source (which is about the indictment): Pastor charged with inciting hatred for saying gays are 'gender filth' who 'destroy civilisation and attack the divine order'


Is this OK or does it violate freedom of speech or freedom of religion?

First, if that's the law of Germany then he broke it at his own risk.

Second, he's at even further fault for not defending the charge on the ground of his insanity.

 

[danieldemol]

I think if the pastor was expressing his opinion to an individual he should not have been fined, but allowed to grow through reasoned debate, the trouble is more that he was inciting the passions of a religious mob, and engaging in public slander.

Perhaps a class action by all gay folk who shower once a day in Germany sueing him for damaged reputation would have been more appropriate?

 

[Estro Felino]

I think if the pastor was expressing his opinion to an individual he should not have been fined, but allowed to grow through reasoned debate, the trouble is more that he was inciting the passions of a religious mob, and engaging in public slander.

Perhaps a class action by all gay folk who shower once a day in Germany sueing him for damaged reputation would have been more appropriate?

Very good idea.

 

[Heyo]

Perhaps a class action by all gay folk who shower once a day in Germany sueing him for damaged reputation would have been more appropriate?

It would have been in the US. There is no such thing as a class action suit in German law.

 

[danieldemol]

It would have been in the US. There is no such thing as a class action suit in German law.

That sounds bizarre to me, i wonder what they do when a group of people in Germany face an injustice?

 

[Heyo]

That sounds bizarre to me, i wonder what they do when a group of people in Germany face an injustice?

Class action - Wikipedia

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yet the law is the law, Germany along with most other European countries consider thst freedom of speech comes with responsibility.

By who's standard? See the danger with that?

 

[ChristineM]

By who's standard? See the danger with that?

The standard of the democratic country involved.


What danger? I see that people inciting hatred and violence can be held responsible for their actions.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The standard of the democratic country involved.


What danger? I see that people inciting hatred and violence can be held responsible for their actions.

Its the ability to place legal mechanisms in place where one could create a whole list of criminality on words alone that can be expanded to include a whole slew of things well past the original.


That's the danger.

 

[ChristineM]

Its the ability to place legal mechanisms in place where one could create a whole list of criminality on words alone that can be expanded to include a whole slew of things well past the original.


That's the danger.

European laws don't play childish word games. The various countries laws concern intent to incite violence and hatred.

 

[Twilight Hue]

European laws don't play childish word games. The various countries laws concern intent to incite violence and hatred.

That remains to be seen.

 

[Wandering Monk]

The first step to murdering a person or group is to dehumanize them.

 

[ChristineM]

That remains to be seen.

It's worked ok so far, i don't see why it should chance now because you are wishful thinking.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

As much as his comments are ignorant and hateful, I support his right to say them. Freedom of expression is intended precisely to defend the freedoms of people whose opinions are in the minority. I feel the same about the disgusting expressions by folks in the US like the Westboro Baptists.

Well said. While the comments in question are indeed hateful, who gets to decide which comments are “hateful”?

If it’s hateful to call a group of people “vile”, well, quite frankly, I might have a “hateful” thing or two to say myself about certain groups in the US. What if I think some religious teachings are “vile”? Who gets to decide which forms of speech are acceptable?

And if his speech is hateful, why not defeat it with speech? Drown him out with a chorus of reason and empathy, I say. Prison sentences and fines imposed by the state can’t compel the right feelings and, if a person has feelings, it is somewhat dehumanizing to compel silence. And isn’t silencing his speech treating a symptom rather than the causes, anyway?

To me, just as more, better science is the cure for bad science, more and better speech is the cure for speech we find detestable.

It’s interesting, enlightened Christians learned this lesson long ago. I attended a Catholic school for a few years, and they did not hold back in teaching students about all the criticisms of the Church and Christianity - what do secular philosophers say, what do Jews say, Muslims, etc. What do secular vs Church historians say about things like the Crusades, etc. They let the students make up their own minds, to their credit.

As an American of course it’s not my country and not up to me. Perhaps if the US and been a theater of war in WWII and party to the Holocaust, I would feel differently (not to say the US hasn’t seen plenty of atrocities).