• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Pastor Sentenced For Hate Speech

Is this verdict OK?

  • Yes

    Votes: 14 56.0%
  • No, it violates freedom of speech.

    Votes: 7 28.0%
  • No, it violates freedom of religion.

    Votes: 1 4.0%
  • No, the fine is too low.

    Votes: 1 4.0%
  • Other (Please specify)

    Votes: 4 16.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Heyo

Veteran Member
Malicious words are not assaults as far as I'm concerned. Malicious actions however are.
I'm a bit of two minds on this one. On one side I think that anybody should be able to decide and be responsible for ones own actions on the other hand we know that people can be easily manipulated.
The German law takes the later into account by prohibiting such manipulation. We also have a law against public calls to commit crimes.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
A pastor in Bremen has been sentenced to pay € 8,100 for homophobic hate speech.

German source: Hetze ist verboten – auch von der Kanzel: Keine Gnade für Pastor Hass
English source (which is about the indictment): Pastor charged with inciting hatred for saying gays are 'gender filth' who 'destroy civilisation and attack the divine order'


Is this OK or does it violate freedom of speech or freedom of religion?

The use of hate speech to incite violence against others who are different is not protected by 'freedom of speech' in Germany nor the USA. Religious institutions are not protected different than any other institution.

I agree that it was hate speech now as it was in Hitler's time.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
My first instinct is that people should have freedom of speech, but...

There are words of unpopular opinion, and there are words that incite. This kind of language incites.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
You are not German law

I don't think the issue @Heyo had in mind to discuss was the particular of whether this guy technically broke German law. If so, I bow out as I'm no expert in German law (is anyone, here?). The question is the more fundamental one of whether we should criminalize hateful speech. We Americans tend to have a more expansive notion of free speech, and recoil at these sorts of laws.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
I don't think the issue @Heyo had in mind to discuss was the particular of whether this guy technically broke German law. If so, I bow out as I'm no expert in German law (is anyone, here?). The question is the more fundamental one of whether we should criminalize hateful speech. We Americans tend to have a more expansive notion of free speech, and recoil at these sorts of laws.

I know american law and American views are different from European laws but the pastor was not in america. One must take account of the laws of the country concerned, not the laws of america. We Europeans have a slightly different view of what constitutes free speech. I.e it comes with responsibility
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I don't think the issue @Heyo had in mind to discuss was the particular of whether this guy technically broke German law.
That's correct. I wanted to hear opinions from members of RF from all over the world mostly about prohibiting that kind of speech in general. (But I'm also OK with considering that it happened in Germany.)
I'm astounded about the positive perception since, as you said, freedom of speech is valued very high in the US.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
That's correct. I wanted to hear opinions from members of RF from all over the world mostly about prohibiting that kind of speech in general. (But I'm also OK with considering that it happened in Germany.)
I'm astounded about the positive perception since, as you said, freedom of speech is valued very high in the US.

I'm surprised too, tbh. The guy advocated no violence against LGBTQ+ individuals. He simply expressed his opinion as a fundamentalist about their "sinfulness" and so on. People on RF have done that soooo many times, lol. Do the people who answered "yes" in this poll want that language on RF to be considered a criminal act?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
True. Yet its recognized as a violation of a persons ability to speak freely.

Yet the law is the law, Germany along with most other European countries consider thst freedom of speech comes with responsibility.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
A pastor in Bremen has been sentenced to pay € 8,100 for homophobic hate speech.

German source: Hetze ist verboten – auch von der Kanzel: Keine Gnade für Pastor Hass
English source (which is about the indictment): Pastor charged with inciting hatred for saying gays are 'gender filth' who 'destroy civilisation and attack the divine order'


Is this OK or does it violate freedom of speech or freedom of religion?
If the guy broke German law then he has no leg to stand on
Sad that religion is often represented as condemning sin.
I was always taught that Jesus preached forgiveness and compassion.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Then try it, like he did, in most European countries and see if you get arrested.
We can not pitch and choose which laws we will obey.
Personal opinion does not come into it.
Good to be in a country where where ones open opinions are protected then. Their problem actually, and weither people want to do something about it or not is entirely up to them.

Their loss as far as I'm concerned.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If the guy broke German law then he has no leg to stand on
Sad that religion is often represented as condemning sin.
I was always taught that Jesus preached forgiveness and compassion.

Yes he did, but he never promoted a sinful life course as if it didn't matter either. He was there to help those lost in sin to turn their lives around.

Hate is not a Christlike quality, unless the hatred is directed at wicked behavior. Hate the sin, not the sinner, but at the same time, help the sinner to see the error of his ways and help them to make a positive change in their lives for the better.

Proverbs 12:18....
"Thoughtless speech is like the stabs of a sword,
But the tongue of the wise is a healing."


If we all lived by this one principle.....we would be mindful of not being an accusing judge, (not our job) but a helpful counselor. And the "sinner" (we are all sinners) has to want our help, otherwise it is an assault on their freedom of choice.

Our freedom is precious, and we all need to make our own choices for the way we live our own lives. If God matters to us, we will do our best to listen to him and obey his commandments. But if God's laws are too restrictive, then we are free to pursue the life we want....for now.

We can and should judge many activities to see if they conform to God's standards, but we cannot impose our standards on others who may not want to live and think as we do. If God gives them that freedom to choose, then so should we.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes he did, but he never promoted a sinful life course as if it didn't matter either. He was there to help those lost in sin to turn their lives around.

Hate is not a Christlike quality, unless the hatred is directed at wicked behavior. Hate the sin, not the sinner, but at the same time, help the sinner to see the error of his ways and help them to make a positive change in their lives for the better.

Proverbs 12:18....
"Thoughtless speech is like the stabs of a sword,
But the tongue of the wise is a healing."


If we all lived by this one principle.....we would be mindful of not being an accusing judge, (not our job) but a helpful counselor. And the "sinner" (we are all sinners) has to want our help, otherwise it is an assault on their freedom of choice.

Our freedom is precious, and we all need to make our own choices for the way we live our own lives. If God matters to us, we will do our best to listen to him and obey his commandments. But if God's laws are too restrictive, then we are free to pursue the life we want....for now.

We can and should judge many activities to see if they conform to God's standards, but we cannot impose our standards on others who may not want to live and think as we do. If God gives them that freedom to choose, then so should we.
Well the rhetoric sounds nice. But there are real world implications for those that are on the receiving end of such allegations for causing world decadence or whatever drummed up charge for their alleged sinful ways. (By the way, wouldn’t that technically be bearing false witness against a fellow man? Declaring them to be causing world destruction without evidence I mean.)

I think this preacher went too far and so faced a fine. It’s one thing to be like, homosexuality is a sin for the Bible tells me so and I believe it is the word of God.
I would disagree personally, but I would not interfere with such a preacher.
(Though I would be inclined to check in on any homosexual youth within that congregation to see if they’re okay.)
It’s another to fire up your followers by laying blame upon a vulnerable minority and hide behind freedom of speech. Those followers could be incentivised to shun or otherwise abuse whatever “sinner” was on the receiving end of such rhetoric.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Well the rhetoric sounds nice. But there are real world implications for those that are on the receiving end of such allegations for causing world decadence or whatever drummed up charge for their alleged sinful ways. (By the way, wouldn’t that technically be bearing false witness against a fellow man? Declaring them to be causing world destruction without evidence I mean.)

Well, according to scripture, we are all on notice down here that this world cannot survive its human mismanagement for much longer. It was never intended to last indefinitely. It was God's way of allowing all of his free willed children to choose which 'god' they were going to obey. At the conclusion of the allotted time (now, as world events indicate that it is drawing to its close) all accountable humans will have made a choice about who they are and what they believe. By the way they have lived their lives, they will have demonstrated their true identity from the Creator's standpoint. He sees the whole person...thoughts actions and motivations. Nothing is hidden from God.
Hebrews 4:13...
"And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account."

Whether we believe in him or not....we are still accountable.

I think this preacher went too far and so faced a fine.
Hate speech that incites others to hate or violence is never going to be approved by God. His own have been on the receiving end of that kind of treatment for thousands of years. Its how we respond to the hate speech and whether we "return evil for evil" that determines our identity as Christians.

Romans 12:17-21...
"Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good."

That is the best advice IMO. Those who can implement this, and cop it on the chin without retaliation, are the real McCoy.

It’s one thing to be like, homosexuality is a sin for the Bible tells me so and I believe it is the word of God.
I would disagree personally, but I would not interfere with such a preacher.
(Though I would be inclined to check in on any homosexual youth within that congregation to see if they’re okay.)
It’s another to fire up your followers by laying blame upon a vulnerable minority and hide behind freedom of speech. Those followers could be incentivised to shun or otherwise abuse whatever “sinner” was on the receiving end of such rhetoric.

The Christian Congregation is no place for willful sinners. Their presence was not to be tolerated.
1 Corinthians 5:19...
"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.

This is about "brothers" who are guilty of such wrongdoing, (in full knowledge of God's laws) not those who may be seeking help for such problems.

It did not involve abuse of any kind, (verbal or physical) just a withdrawing of your company because that person is no longer obedient to the Christ. Their influence could have a morally negative effect on others. (1 Corinthians 15:33) Maintaining friendships with such ones is strongly discouraged for that reason.

But in clarifying that statement, it is important to note that all in that congregation were in no position to judge any person's standing with God. Appointed shepherds were however to judge those "inside" the congregations. whilst God judged those "outside". (Hebrews 13:17)
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
"I say unto you, he that calls his brother a fool (Raca), he is in danger of hellfire". That's somewhere in Proverbs, I think. And then there's "Judge not, lest ye be judged" from the NT. The pastor isn't even practicing his own religion.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
This is a tricky one. While I dislike pastors who say stuff like that, should it be OK for a person to get fined for accusing a group or individuals of something and insulting them? I think that with the historical persecution of the LGBT community, his statements are definitely a problem since his words cultivate discrimination towards them in his listeners hearts, therefore his phrasing is irresponsible. It contributes to their persecution.

The problem with this is then should that line of reasoning extend to other groups as well such as religion and less savoury groups like Neo Nazi's just because we don't like them or think that they are evil?
I think of Westboro Baptist here in the states.

Arguably the most hated church in the US, but people recognize their free speech protections and the value those protections bring.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
A pastor in Bremen has been sentenced to pay € 8,100 for homophobic hate speech.

German source: Hetze ist verboten – auch von der Kanzel: Keine Gnade für Pastor Hass
English source (which is about the indictment): Pastor charged with inciting hatred for saying gays are 'gender filth' who 'destroy civilisation and attack the divine order'


Is this OK or does it violate freedom of speech or freedom of religion?
One hates to point out how many gays, rather than destroying civilisation, have contributed to it. Therefore, that comment at least is slanderous. And slander should always be punished.
 
Top