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Pastor Sentenced For Hate Speech

Discussion in 'European Politics' started by Heyo, Nov 26, 2020.

?
  1. Yes

    14 vote(s)
    56.0%
  2. No, it violates freedom of speech.

    7 vote(s)
    28.0%
  3. No, it violates freedom of religion.

    1 vote(s)
    4.0%
  4. No, the fine is too low.

    1 vote(s)
    4.0%
  5. Other (Please specify)

    4 vote(s)
    16.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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  2. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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  3. Left Coast

    Left Coast Happy New Year!
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    As much as his comments are ignorant and hateful, I support his right to say them. Freedom of expression is intended precisely to defend the freedoms of people whose opinions are in the minority. I feel the same about the disgusting expressions by folks in the US like the Westboro Baptists.
     
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  4. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    This is a tricky one. While I dislike pastors who say stuff like that, should it be OK for a person to get fined for accusing a group or individuals of something and insulting them? I think that with the historical persecution of the LGBT community, his statements are definitely a problem since his words cultivate discrimination towards them in his listeners hearts, therefore his phrasing is irresponsible. It contributes to their persecution.

    The problem with this is then should that line of reasoning extend to other groups as well such as religion and less savoury groups like Neo Nazi's just because we don't like them or think that they are evil?
     
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  5. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Correct verdict. This is clearly speech promoting hatred of a group of people.

    As a test, just imagine if - in Germany, mark you - the word "gays" were to be replace by "Jews". ;)
     
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  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The NAZI's made similar claims, thus I think with Germany's past a fine could be in order.

    But please notice I wrote "could", not "should".
     
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  7. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    From a juridic standpoint, he did not defame a specific person.
    The EKD has never said something like that officially...so...maybe it dealt with a personal opinion and he wasn't speaking on the Evangelical Church's behalf.
    The fine is too high, imho.
    If he crossed the line, a low fine would have been apter.
     
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  8. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    There is no such thing as absolute freedom of speech if any society is to function. The classic shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre is the obvious example. Each country has laws, each society has expectations of its citizens. Homophobic bollocks such as this has no place in a modern society. Unless that society consists solely of homophobes.
     
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  9. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Obviously, it depends on where you live.

    In my opinion, one's religion does not exclude one from obeying the same laws as the society one lives within.
     
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  10. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    The whole point of hate speech laws is to prevent the speaker having that defence.
     
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  11. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I read the article in German only. It is more accurate.
    The pastor said he was attacking the sin, not the sinner.
    And btw....nobody forced his listeners to listen to him;)
     
    #11 Estro Felino, Nov 26, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
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  12. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    i have just been discussing this with a German friend. His view is that the fine is too low, hate speech needs to be treated with the harshest punishment the law can give. His parents lived through the nazi period and he himself is very concerned by the rise in neo-nazism infesting parts of his country. The fact that the guy is of the religious persuasion only makes his comment worse.

    As for me, i voted, yes, the verdict is ok. Its a slap on the hand for being a naughty boy
     
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  13. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Nobody forced the pastor to voice hate speech but he did
     
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  14. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    Its definitely a violation of free speech. Only if greivious harm occurs as a direct result of his actions should an arrest ever be considered imo.
     
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  15. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    The law in Germany applies

    Volksverhetzung, in English "incitement of the masses", "instigation of the people" (the official English translation of the German Criminal Code uses "incitement to hatred"[1][2]), is a concept in German criminal law that refers to incitement to hatred against segments of the population and refers to calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them, including assaults against the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population
    Volksverhetzung - Wikipedia
     
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  16. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    As with all Freedom of Speech issues there is always a 'inciting hate' exclusion clause, I would argue this incites hate.
     
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  17. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I think the standard which seems reasonable to me is whether the speech creates a clear and present danger. Such as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater where there is no fire. Or if you're at City Hall and speaking to an angry mob with torches and pitchforks and call out "Let's attack City Hall," then that would also qualify. But if you're miles away from City Hall and just speaking hypothetically about what may happen someday, that's not a clear and present danger.
     
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  18. Verdant Nebulosity

    Verdant Nebulosity Just Breathe

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    Freedom of Speech, does not mean freedom from consequences of your Speech.
     
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  19. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Gender filth? Destroying civilisation? This is incitement to hatred of a group.

    Attacking the sin, not the sinner is an absurd defence.
     
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  20. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    Malicious words are not assaults as far as I'm concerned. Malicious actions however are.
     
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