1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Paschal Lamb

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,538
    Ratings:
    +478
    Religion:
    None of the above
    The Orthodox Jews I used to work told me that the first 24-hour period from the beginning of Nisan 15 at sunset is special in that it is the time within which a Seder is observed and no work is performed regardless of whether one is in Israel or not. Some of them would be willing to work on the second day. Not Lubavitchers though. And not those who planned a large second Seder. :) Anyway, they would all use Passover in the two senses I mentioned depending on context. I happened to notice that in Israel, the word Pesach alone without qualifiers is the one-day legal holiday. Passover properly is as you say the entire 7/8 day period. I was just mentioning that the intended meaning may vary depending on who is saying it in what context.


    You said that unless the word ‘festival’ was used, the word refers to the sacrifice. This raises questions when the Greek of Mark is examined.

    Mark 14:1 En de to pascha kai ta azuma meta duo hēmeras

    Literally: ‘It was yet the passover and the unleavened after two days’.

    KJV: After two days was [the feast of] the passover, and of unleavened bread

    Mark links the word Passover and the Feast of the Unleavened Bread here, which would make ‘Passover’ mean the festival. But in that case, why say the Passover and the feast?


    Mark 14:12 kai iē prōtē hēmera tōn azumōn ho te pascha ethuon

    Literally: ‘and to the before-most day of-the unleavened when the passover they-sacrificed’

    KJV: And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover

    Here the word ‘passover’ is used in reference to the sacrifice, which would be the afternoon of 14 Nisan. Yet it is also called the first day of unleavened bread, which properly did not begin until sunset, the beginning of Nisan 15.

    I agree with you that this does not make strict sense. As I have written earlier, Mark’s narrative connects Jesus to the sacrifice in an indirect manner. Is this just another example of that?


    The problem with starting months with the confirmed sighting of the new moon was that the lunar cycle is twenty-nine and a half days long. That means two possible days only one of which is right. Thanks to Hillel II (according to tradition) the mathematically based rabbinic calendar settles the matter regardless of sighting.
     
  2. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2015
    Messages:
    3,221
    Ratings:
    +1,040
    Religion:
    seeking
    Jesus is the Paschal lamb for Christians. He was actually killed at the same time that the other lambs were being killed for the Passover.
     
  3. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,538
    Ratings:
    +478
    Religion:
    None of the above
    Only according to John, who also makes the last supper an ordinary meal with no Eucharist institution either. The Synoptic Gospels definitely present the last supper as a Seder.
     
  4. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,424
    Ratings:
    +7,902
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    I think you simply didn't understand what they meant. The holiday of Passover is divided into two parts, the first and last day (or first two and last two days) and the middle days. The first and last days are what we call holiday days, or more literally holy days, because the rules on those days are similar to the Sabbath in terms of their prohibitions and meal requirements. The middle days are called "mundane [days] of the festival". On those five (or four) days, it's still the festival, but the restrictions are relaxed almost like a weekday. But the whole thing is called Passover and the whole thing is called the Festival of Unleavened Bread and it's all the same holiday. The added days are tacked onto both holy days in the diaspora: the first day is extended to a second day of "holy day" (which gives them one day less of "mundane festival". And the last day of the festival has another day added to it, which gives them an eighth day of the holiday.

    I do not think any Jews who call themselves Orthodox and live in the diaspora only keep one day of the holy day part of the festival.


    You said that unless the word ‘festival’ was used, the word refers to the sacrifice. This raises questions when the Greek of Mark is examined.

    I have two answers:
    1. Passover here refers to the time of eating the Passover sacrifice which occurs the same time the Festival of Unleavened Bread does.
    2. This line is referring to the day when the Passover offering is sacrifices and the unleavened bread part refers to the day when only unleavened bread may be eaten. By the 14th at noon, all leavening must be removed in order to sacrifice the Passover offering.

    No, that was not a problem. The number of days in a month varies between 29 and 30 days to accomadate this. Even when the month was sanctified by sighting, calculations were used by the Sanhedrin to determine when the moon was expected to be visible. Hillel II only performed calculations and sanctified the months for us, knowing that we would no longer be able to do so.
     
  5. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    6,762
    Ratings:
    +564
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jesus did make ready the passover and did eat of the passover lamb.

    In the book of Matthew 26:17, The disciples came to Jesus and said to him,
    Where will you that we prepare for you to eat the passover?

    In Verse 18, Jesus told his disciples Go into the city to such a man, and say to him, The Master said, My time is at hand, I will keep the passover with my disciples.

    Verse 19 and the disciples did as Jesus had said. And they made ready the passover.

    Verse 20, Now when the even was come, he (Jesus ) sat down with the twelve.

    Verse 21, And as they did eat, he ( Jesus ) said.

    Therefore Jesus did make ready the passover with his 12 disciples, and did eat the passover with his 12 disciples.

    Notice in Verse 19 ( And they made ready the passover) this does include Jesus also
    ( And they) made ready the passover.
     
  6. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    9,640
    Ratings:
    +742
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    The complete seder was held. The lamb was killed by whomever prepared the meal and Jesus ate of the meal. Why do you ask?
     
  7. Prestor John

    Prestor John Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,182
    Ratings:
    +223
    Religion:
    Latter-Day Saint
    He was to be the Lamb.
     
  8. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    10,134
    Ratings:
    +1,786
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love
    why is there no mention of the lamb being eaten? it was required that the whole lamb had to be consumed before sunrise.

    but the two are eaten on the same day?

    or the lamb is eaten the day before the beginning of unleavened bread?
     
  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    10,134
    Ratings:
    +1,786
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love

    there is no mention of the lamb in any of the gospels. if jesus was an essene there wouldn't have been a lamb. the essenes were vegetarian. they also didn't offer animal sacrifices.
     
  10. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,538
    Ratings:
    +478
    Religion:
    None of the above
    The lambs were sacrificed in the Temple on the afternoon of 14 Nisan. In the evening of 15 Nisan, which began at sunset, the meal would be eaten, including consuming all of the lamb before morning, burning whatever remained. As Tumah has pointed out, the Festival of Unleavened Bread begins 15 Nisan.

    Mark seems to run the sacrifice and the meal together in Mark 14:1 and Mark 14:12. As I have spoken about above, in Mark 14:22 he also seems to connect Jesus with the lamb that was just eaten and that was sacrificed that afternoon, which was actually Nisan 14. My take is that Mark is deliberately pushing it all together to have Jesus be the sacrifice and avoiding mention of the lamb itself to not confuse the image.
     
  11. GR8FL1

    GR8FL1 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2018
    Messages:
    10
    Ratings:
    +3
    Religion:
    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    I note that it was Jesus and the disciples who went in to the Passover meal. This is a deeply significant time for me to think about because of the Atonement in the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus suffered for all our sins and our infirmities. There is nothing we can experience here in mortality that the Savior has not already taken upon himself in our behalf. I understand that He sweated drops of blood. I can imagine how heavy he felt in his heart at the knowledge of what lay ahead. Nevertheless, because of the Atonement Jesus knows exactly what we are suffering and can help us. The crucifixion and resurrection assures us that each of us, will be resurrected and that we will receive again our mortal bodies. I have never been totally sure how this could be accomplished, but I have faith to know that God makes good on his promises. Now that we know about DNA the assurance that not a hair of our heads will be lost takes on a deeper meaning.
    I am a Latter-day Saint, which many of you may know as a Mormon. This comes from a book of scriptures, the Book of Mormon, which is a record of peoples who left the Holy Land and came to the American continent. It is also a powerful testament of Jesus Christ's post-resurrection visit to the descendants of those people. One of the Prophet-historians, Alma, speaks of the resurrection and of not losing as much as a hair of our heads, (Alma 40:23) "The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame." Somehow, this will indeed happen.
     
  12. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,424
    Ratings:
    +7,902
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    The Passover sacrifice is eaten on the first night of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the 15th of Nissan.
     
  13. ThePainefulTruth

    ThePainefulTruth Romantic-Cynic

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    3,220
    Ratings:
    +451
    Religion:
    Agnostic-Deist
    Obviously, because he was the lamb, :rolleyes: the Mithraic rite having been backed in to Christian (read Pauline) theology by the time the gospels were written.
     
  14. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    9,640
    Ratings:
    +742
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    Jesus wasn't an Essene or Qumran'er living in the desert. He was in the Galil and preached quite openly in Jerusalem, with His followers doing much the same after Him.

    There is a mention of the Last Supper or Last Seder in the gospels, along with a few elements of importance, matzo and wine, but no lamb is mentioned because the lamb was answering the four questions and leading the service!
     
  15. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,538
    Ratings:
    +478
    Religion:
    None of the above
    Interesting picture! :) Who was asking the questions?
     
  16. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    7,399
    Ratings:
    +1,543
    Is the information concerning the timing (days) of the sacrifice and Passover in the following linked article correct?

    " The Jewish day begins at sunset, thus it begins with night, followed by morning, and the following afternoon is called the evening. The day “when they killed the passover,” 14 Nisan, began after sunset Wednesday. That night the last supper was eaten. The passover lamb was not slain until the following afternoon in the evening of 14 Nisan (Ex 12:6), before sunset marked the beginning of 15. Then the lamb would be roasted and that night (v 8), after sunset and thus 15 Nisan, it would be eaten.

    The fifteenth was the first day of the seven-day feast of the passover and unleavened bread and was a “high sabbath.” Thus John states that when Jesus was on the cross “it was the preparation of the passover [i.e., the lambs were being slain],” and explains further, “The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation [of the passover], that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day (for that sabbath day was an high day), besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.” In A.D. 32 when Jesus was crucified, the high Sabbath went from Thursday evening to Friday evening, followed by the weekly sabbath from Friday evening to Saturday evening, so the women could not get to the grave until Sunday morning.

    The last supper was held “before the feast of the passover” (Jn:13:1-2 ), on the night of 14 Nisan in the upper room where the disciples began their preparation. The passover lamb would be slain the following afternoon (the evening of 14 Nisan) and eaten that night. But Jesus would not participate because He would be betrayed right after the last supper, brought before the rabbis, then taken by them early in the morning of the fourteenth to Pilate and finally crucified in the afternoon (evening) of 14 Nisan just when Israel’s passover lambs were also being slain."

    Question: ...How could Jesus be the Messiah the Lamb, if He was not crucified until a day after the passover lamb was slain? Mark 15:1 says, “in the morning,” so it had to be the next day, a day after the passover, that Jesus was slain.
     
  17. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,424
    Ratings:
    +7,902
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    It's true that we count our days from the night time meaning the 14th starts at night and the 15th won't begin until the following night. It's also true that the 14th is the day when various preparations are finalized for the coming Passover holiday which begins on the night of the 15th. And lastly, it's true that the Passover offerings begin to be sacrifices on the 14th after noon, but are only eaten that night, the 15th.

    As for the rest ...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    7,399
    Ratings:
    +1,543
    Okay, thank you so much. I was only asking about the accuracy of the dating and certainly didn't expect you to agree with the rest.:)
     
  19. Shaul

    Shaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2016
    Messages:
    3,097
    Ratings:
    +1,246
    Religion:
    Judaism
    While I am not disagreeing with you I would like to mention one special observance made on the 14th of Nissan. First born fast on the 14th. But only them, as I’m sure you knew. I just wanted to be thorough.

    But Jesus did not observe this fast even though, as a first born, he should have. Just another example of something troubling in the gospel accounts.

    For those unfamiliar with this fast here is a link to a Wikipedia entry about it, Fast of the Firstborn - Wikipedia
     
  20. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    9,640
    Ratings:
    +742
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    As important, who was answering the questions!
     
Loading...