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Paschal Lamb
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Tumah
Veteran Member
Did the night the last supper was said to have occurred on the 14th or 15th of Nissan?
irrelevant, the passover requires the sacrifice of the lamb and it's assimilation as part of the ceremony. why is that part not part of the passover Jesus should have celebrated as a jew?
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Tumah
Veteran Member
It's quite relevant. The Passover sacrifice is killed on the 14th day and eaten on the 15th night. If the authors of the NT had Jesus dead by then, there's no logical reason for them to have him eating it.
If I recall correctly, Matthew, Mark and Luke have the Last Supper-Crucifixion narrative at a different date than John. In the synoptics they eat with Jesus and in John Jesus is before the Romans on the eve of the Passover.
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JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
this comes from luke 22
7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 Jesus sent Peter and John saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”
there is no mention of any lamb in the meal. references are made to the unleaven bread but not to an actual literal, physical lamb other than Jesus' reference to his body as the bread and his blood as the wine.
I was going to write on why Mark, Matthew and Luke have the Last Supper be a Passover Seder and John does not. But in first establishing that in the Synoptic Gospels the Last Supper is without doubt a Seder I got carried away and came up with this as a first instalment.
Mark 14
Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
V 12 ‘when they killed the passover’ is in the Greek to pascha ethuon = ‘the Passover they sacrificed’ which is perhaps a bit clearer. This would be the afternoon of Nisan 14
V 17 has them arrive in the evening. This would be Nisan 15, which began at sunset.
Passover is mentioned 5 times. Eating is referenced 5 times in the context of a meal. The combination ‘eat the Passover’ occurs twice. This is a Passover Seder in which the sacrificed lamb is eaten. The absence of a direct reference to the lamb is not a problem. What do you think they were eating? A direct reference to the lamb would detract from the identification of Jesus with the Paschal Lamb.
V 20 refers to dipping in a dish, which agrees with the Greek. Some modern translations like the NIV render it as ‘dips bread into the bowl with me’. This is not salsa! It is dipping maror, a bitter vegetable like raw horseradish, into a bowl of charoset, mixed apples, nuts, cinnamon and wine. Charoset is truly delicious and works surprisingly well with horseradish. Dipping matzah into a bowl is not part of a Seder and as I said it does not appear in the Greek.
V 22 may very well refer to the afikomen ‘dessert’ matzah, which is eaten after the meal and commemorates the paschal sacrifice. A perfect way to associate Jesus with that sacrifice.
V 23 would then refer to the third cup of wine, over which a blessing is said, and is then drunk by all. Ordinarily a fourth cup would be drunk but there is no mention of this. However, this cup is associated with the coming of Elijah, who would presage the Messiah. But as Mark says right at the very beginning of his Gospel, Elijah has already come in the person of John the Baptist and Jesus is the Messiah who has come, who will shortly depart and who will come again. In fact in V 25, Jesus says that he will drink no more wine after this.
V 26 refers to singing a hymn after the Seder. The current practice in Judaism is the reciting of some Psalms at the end.
The Last Supper as first recounted in Mark is without a doubt a Passover Seder conducted according to the standard practices of Judaism, except for deliberate divergences, and according to the Temple calendar.
As I have said elsewhere, there are far more subtleties in Mark than he is generally given credit for.
Mark 14
Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
V 12 ‘when they killed the passover’ is in the Greek to pascha ethuon = ‘the Passover they sacrificed’ which is perhaps a bit clearer. This would be the afternoon of Nisan 14
V 17 has them arrive in the evening. This would be Nisan 15, which began at sunset.
Passover is mentioned 5 times. Eating is referenced 5 times in the context of a meal. The combination ‘eat the Passover’ occurs twice. This is a Passover Seder in which the sacrificed lamb is eaten. The absence of a direct reference to the lamb is not a problem. What do you think they were eating? A direct reference to the lamb would detract from the identification of Jesus with the Paschal Lamb.
V 20 refers to dipping in a dish, which agrees with the Greek. Some modern translations like the NIV render it as ‘dips bread into the bowl with me’. This is not salsa! It is dipping maror, a bitter vegetable like raw horseradish, into a bowl of charoset, mixed apples, nuts, cinnamon and wine. Charoset is truly delicious and works surprisingly well with horseradish. Dipping matzah into a bowl is not part of a Seder and as I said it does not appear in the Greek.
V 22 may very well refer to the afikomen ‘dessert’ matzah, which is eaten after the meal and commemorates the paschal sacrifice. A perfect way to associate Jesus with that sacrifice.
V 23 would then refer to the third cup of wine, over which a blessing is said, and is then drunk by all. Ordinarily a fourth cup would be drunk but there is no mention of this. However, this cup is associated with the coming of Elijah, who would presage the Messiah. But as Mark says right at the very beginning of his Gospel, Elijah has already come in the person of John the Baptist and Jesus is the Messiah who has come, who will shortly depart and who will come again. In fact in V 25, Jesus says that he will drink no more wine after this.
V 26 refers to singing a hymn after the Seder. The current practice in Judaism is the reciting of some Psalms at the end.
The Last Supper as first recounted in Mark is without a doubt a Passover Seder conducted according to the standard practices of Judaism, except for deliberate divergences, and according to the Temple calendar.
As I have said elsewhere, there are far more subtleties in Mark than he is generally given credit for.
The day of unleavened bread came, on which the Passover must be sacrificed.
Luke 22:7
Passover means in that paschal lamb. If they didn’t eat it, why prepare it?
Tumah
Veteran Member
This sentence is nonsense. The Passover sacrifice is prepared the day before the holiday of Unleavened Bread, not on it.
Jesus was preparing himself for the sacrifice replacing Passover with himself. They were preparing Jesus. The bread was symbolic since the sacrifice had not occurred but was claimed to be the key to remission if sins and eternal life. He claimed to be the son of man which likely angered regular Jews not agreeing with Jesus hijacking of the Tanach.
The Festival of Unleavened Bread was the entire 7 (+) day period. Passover is only one 24 hour period out of that. In the days of the Second Temple, the Festival began with the sacrifice of the lambs on the afternoon of Nisan 14. That was the '+' I mentioned above. Passover itself began at sunset, the beginning of Nisan 15. In modern times there is no + because there is no Temple in which to perform sacrifices. But outside of Israel, for the fully observant .Jew the Festival is actually 8 days with a second Passover Seder being observed. The reason is a bit complicated and I will not go there right now.
Did you read Tumah's religion label? Lol.
There is some ambiguity in what one might mean when saying Passover or Pesach, One might mean one day or the whole 7/8 day period. But the Festival (or Feast) of Unleavened Bread is the whole Megillah, so to speak.
I'm not sure you understood. I'm just pointing it out to you that Tumah is an Orthodox Jew. I'm sure he doesn't need Pesach explaining to him. That's all.There is some ambiguity in what one might mean when saying Passover or Pesach, One might mean one day or the whole 7/8 day period. But the Festival (or Feast) of Unleavened Bread is the whole Megillah, so to speak.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
It is unlikely that the last supper was held during Passover since the Sanhedrin could not have been convened because of the holiday. In emergency situations, whereas a decision must be made, one member of the Sanhedrin would have made that decision whereas it could be reviewed later by the others if needed.
BTW, I thinks it's John's gospel that had the Twelve and Jesus celebrating it on "the preparation day".
BTW, I thinks it's John's gospel that had the Twelve and Jesus celebrating it on "the preparation day".
Tumah
Veteran Member
This is wrong. There is no holiday called "Passover" in the Tanach. Holidays are not given proper names, they're called by events relevant to the holiday. The Feast of Unleavened Bread is also called the Feast of the Passover, because it's the holiday that the Passover sacrifice was eaten on. The Feast of Unleavened Bread aka the Feast of Passover begins on Nisan the 15th at night and continues for 7 days. It's not a 24 hour period, it's another name for the same holiday. The day prior to the Feast, the 14th, is not a holiday, it's simply the day on which one removes all unleavened bread in order to sacrifice the Passover offering (which can't be sacrificed with unleavened bread around). There are no special observances on the 14th, because again, although the Passover sacrifice is being sacrificed on this day, it's not eaten until the night time. The offering must be eaten on the night of the 15th and can't be eaten after dawn, so there's a practical reason why we don't wait until the night to start the sacrifices. So the only time the word "Passover" refers to a holiday, is when the word "festival" is attached to it. Otherwise it refers to the actual sacrifice. The proper noun "Passover" for the holiday is a much later name for the holiday, similar to how Rosh HaShanah is a later name for the Day of Trumpets.
The reason why those of us in the diaspora add an extra day (technically two extra days on Passover and Tabernacles) was because the amount of days in a month used to be subject to change and the Sanhedrin was worried that messengers wouldn't make it to all the countries in time to let them know. The extra day covers the possible change to the calendar. Today, that is no the reason as we have a fixed calendar. The reason we do so today is because this is the custom we inherited from our fathers and in case a problem ever crops up again.