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Featured Paschal Lamb

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    I was just wondering who the youngest male able to handle the questions was.
     
  2. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    actually all his actions are pretty much consistent with essenism.


    him and joseoph were artisans. he treated women as equals. his family traveled a lot. he abhorred the way the temple was managed. essenes didn't take, or swear, oaths. essenes believed in the equality of all people. essenes didn't offer animal sacrifices but did offer vegetable sacrifices. essenes practiced communalism and had no personal goods/property. essenes tended to live in areas set apart from the typical israelite cities. essenes didn't retaliate against their enemies. essenes could move from one community to another and be accommodated with food and lodging by members of that community. et al


    A Portrait Of Jesus' World - The Essenes And The Dead Sea Scrolls | From Jesus To Christ - The First Christians | FRONTLINE | PBS

    A Portrait Of Jesus' World - Dead Sea Scrolls | From Jesus To Christ - The First Christians | FRONTLINE | PBS

    ESSENES - JewishEncyclopedia.com
     
  3. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Yochanan the son of thunder, JOHN, the fourth gospel writer.
     
  4. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Pardon me, but Jesus ate a last seder where lamb was served. There are commonalities with Essenes, yes. There are commonalities between the NT characters and Muslim characters and beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, and Hitler quoted the NT in many speeches, too, BUT!
     
  5. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    there is no mention of any lamb at any of the last supper inferences. there is the unleavened bread but no physical lamb.

    passover was adamant about lamb being eaten and being fully consumed before daylight.


    Deuteronomy 16 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre


    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ed...er-look-significance-of-dead-sea-scrolls.html
     
  6. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    In the Gospel of John, the Last Supper is not a Passover Seder. No Four Questions and answers.
     
  7. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    As a Jewish believer in Jesus Christ, I'm more than aware of the elements of a correct seder. You and I can consider a Passover seder and find 20 things also not mentioned in the gospels besides the lamb, because the emphasis was the cup (Jesus's blood) and the bread (Jesus's body). John said JESUS is the lamb!

    After resurrecting, Jesus spoke to His disciples and asked if they had any fish to eat. We can read the gospels and find Jesus eating fish, His declaring all foods kosher, or Paul's admonition to eat meat whether or not it was first sacrificed to some god to explode the concept of the Christians or apostles being vegetarians.

    Essenes and Qumran'ers were communal and hid in the desert (in part), avoiding conflict. Jesus and the apostles confronted the Pharisees and Sanhedrin and taught that Jesus is GOD. There's no way Jesus was an Essene!
     
  8. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    I'm a Jewish believer in Jesus Christ, and am aware that about 20 elements of a seder aren't mentioned in the gospels. The emphasis was on the blood and body, matzo and wine.
     
  9. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Scholars, Jewish and Christian and atheist, all teach the last supper was a seder. What is your source for otherwise?
     
  10. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    Mark, Matthew and Luke make the Last Supper explicitly a Passover Seder. John makes it clear that it is not a Seder by changing the timeline. Complicated reasons for this.
     
  11. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    For one thing, I believe the four gospel harmonize and that the Bible is inerrant. For another, we both know John is emphasizing Jesus's divinity, while others are emphasizing Old Testament prophetic fulfillment. The original seder (the biblical one emphasizes redemption from the angel of death by the lamb, not the modern seder emphasizing delivery from Egyptian servitude) prefigures the glorious Christ.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    When it comes at least to specifics, but Bible simply does not harmonize, so it cannot be viewed as being "inerrant". An example I've used many times and will use again is "How many angels were at Jesus' tomb, where was he/they located, what did he/they say, and what happened immediately afterward?". No two gospels agree, and if one doesn't believe me, I encourage them to check it out for themselves.
     
  13. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    How do you reconcile the testimony of the Synoptic Gospels that the Last Supper was a Passover Seder, following which Jesus was arrested, tried and crucified, with the clear statement of John that all of that happened before Passover began.

    The testimony of the Synoptic Gospels is that the Last Supper was a Passover Seder. See Mark 14:12-17,
    Matthew 26:17-20, Luke 22:7-14. Following that, Jesus was arrested, tried and crucified. A Seder is eaten after sunset at the beginning of Nisan 15. Jesus dies on Nisan 15.

    John omits any mention of a Seder and plainly says that the Passover meal has not yet been eaten when Jesus has already been arrested and is being tried.

    John 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.​

    This is the morning of Nisan 14, Jesus is crucified and dies on Nisan 14. This is in conflict with Mark, Mathew and Luke who have Jesus crucified and die on Nisan 15. How do you reconcile this?


    The original Passover ordinance given to Moses and Aaron (Exodus 12:1) was to be observed in commemoration of being liberated from Egypt.

    Exodus 12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever. .​

    That very first night involved putting the blood of the lamb on the door lintels so the angel of death would pass over that house. But beyond that the details concern being prepared to leave.

    Exodus 12:11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover. .​

    The difference between the first Passover and the Passover observance ‘in the generations’ is the putting of the blood on the door lintels. But the purpose of the angel of death coming was to finally convince Pharaoh to let the Jews go, as foreshadowed in the ordinance by eating ‘with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand’. The first Passover was about leaving Egypt as Passover to this day is about commemorating that.
     
  14. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    I've read solid papers online that harmonize John 18 and the other passages you've quoted. What you've underscored (unintentionally, I don't know?) is that the synoptics are different enough from John as to make the scriptures non-univocal and not inerrant. I believe they harmonize beautifully.

    And I hear what you're saying about passovers subsequent to the first passover, however, even a basic search online will reveal evidence that the modern observance is of slavery while in Jesus's time it was still ALL ABOUT THE LAMB AND DELIVERANCE FROM DEATH, not slavery. Or do you have gospel references where they talk about EGYPT during the last supper?!
     
  15. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    I have presented a major and clearly intentional discrepancy between John and the Synoptic Gospels. The Synoptic passages I cited very definitely are about the Last Supper being a Seder and Jesus dying on the first day of Passover, Nisan 15. John makes no mention of a Seder, leaving out all the material that the Synoptics have in common concerning this subject. The passage from John I cited very definitely has Jesus dying on the day before Passover starts, that is, on Nisan 14. His passing remark in this regard is obviously about making sure the reader understands that he is telling a different story. Just as he does in most places in his Gospel.

    If you wish to claim that there is no discrepancy, please present arguments to that effect and as may be appropriate reference to online resources.

    I quoted the passage in Exodus showing that even at the very beginning, Passover was more about freedom from Egypt than about avoiding death by angel. That was the instrument ensuring their freedom, not the main message.

    In the present day, Passover is also about commemoration of escaping Egypt, as can be seen in the Haggadah. If you read it you will see that the Haggadah originally referred to the still existing Temple. That is, the Haggadah dates back to even before Jesus and makes no mention of the angel of death.

    I am totally unaware of any part of the Seder practices at any point in history after the first Passover where there is any painting with blood in the Seder observance.. Without that there is no reference to the angel of death.

    If you wish to claim that in the time of Jesus the Seder was “ALL ABOUT THE LAMB AND DELIVERANCE FROM DEATH” as you did, please provide credible sources supporting this claim.
     
  16. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    I think we're misunderstanding each other, it may be my fault, and I apologize. Are you saying the passover in the synoptics and the last supper of John are presenting a Bible contradiction, since each seems to be held immediately before Jesus's arrest?
     
  17. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    I am saying that in the Synoptic Gospels, the Last Supper is a Passover Seder that takes place in the evening of Nisan 15, the first day of Passover. Jesus is then arrested, tried and executed, being dead before the end of Nisan 15. But in the Gospel of John, the Last Supper takes place in the evening of Nisan 14 and is therefore not a Passover Seder. Jesus is arrested after the supper, tried and executed, dying before the end of Nisan 14, the day before Passover. Flat out contradiction.

    Furthermore, since John omits all the Passover related material used by the other writers in his (John’s) depiction of the Last Supper and makes sure that the reader understands that the arrest, trials and execution take place on the day before Passover (i.e., on Nisan 14), it is clear this is no accident or misunderstanding but an intentional contradiction of the Synoptics.
     
  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    side note, the angel of death is mentioned Chad Gadya.
    the haggadah does have reference to sprinkling blood on an altar wall but as a reference separate from the "passing over" during the 10th plague.
     
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  19. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
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    :) The Chad Gadya children’s song that is sung at the end of the Seder appears to be of Medieval origin and surely does not support the idea that in the time of Jesus the Seder was “ALL ABOUT THE LAMB AND DELIVERANCE FROM DEATH” as BilliardsBall claimed. Regardless the mention of the angel of death in that song is not at all in the context of the first Passover. If one wants to credit the possible symbolism in the song, the angel of death is supposedly the Turks I believe.

    Aside: Any mention of Chad Gadya always makes me think of Abby and McGee singing it. :p Anybody else?

    The sprinkling of the blood of the sacrificed lambs on the altar took place in the Temple and can no longer be performed. In the time of Jesus it would have still been performed since the Temple still stood. But other than the mention of it, there is no part of the Seder that connects directly to the ‘passing over’, as you pointed out. Again no support to the “ALL ABOUT THE LAMB AND DELIVERANCE FROM DEATH” idea.

    Thanks for the input!
     
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