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"Partiarchy" Malarkey?

Shermana

Heretic
(Note: This thread does not apply to Islamic regimes).

Is there really such thing as a "Patriarchy" or is it just a natural state of being in almost every place on Earth which males end up becoming the dominant gender?

Were women really just regarded as Cattle and property without any rights in the old days, or is that a bit of hyperbole?

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Are there economic and societal considerations that are not taken into context when discussing the historical issues of women?

Is there validity to Feminist concerns against a "Patriarchy" that is holding women down? What exactly, in this day and age are they still being held down about?

Should men willfully abandon their Patriarchal position (however that may be in their individual cases) and fight against this "Patriarchy"? Is it the ethical thing to do? How are they to do it?
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
(Note: This thread does not apply to Islamic regimes).

Is there really such thing as a "Patriarchy" or is it just a natural state of being in almost every place on Earth which males end up becoming the dominant gender?

Were women really just regarded as Cattle and property without any rights in the old days, or is that a bit of hyperbole?

Home Page

Are there economic and societal considerations that are not taken into context when discussing the historical issues of women?

Is there validity to Feminist concerns against a "Patriarchy" that is holding women down? What exactly, in this day and age are they still being held down about?

Should men willfully abandon their Patriarchal position (however that may be in their individual cases) and fight against this "Patriarchy"? Is it the ethical thing to do? How are they to do it?
Patriarchy exists, its fairly easy to see, and it is a serious issue that we need to work with as a society. But I believe its not just women that suffer under it, but also men. Maybe not to the same degree, though. In any case I think patriarchy should be dismantled and that we should rely on merits and competence rather then gender :p. I dont see how men would not gain anything from that.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Patriarchy exists, its fairly easy to see, and it is a serious issue that we need to work with as a society. But I believe its not just women that suffer under it, but also men. Maybe not to the same degree, though. In any case I think patriarchy should be dismantled and that we should rely on merits and competence rather then gender :p. I dont see how men would not gain anything from that.

What are some examples where gender plays a bigger role than merits in an institutionalized way, and what is the means to correct this situation?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Is there really such thing as a "Patriarchy" or is it just a natural state of being in almost every place on Earth which males end up becoming the dominant gender?

These strike me as poorly formed, illogical questions, since the answer to both questions could conceivably be "yes" or "no" despite the presentation of the questions as in opposition to each other. Could you rephrase the questions, please?
 
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DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
These strike me as poorly formed, illogical questions, since the answer to both questions could conceivably be "yes" or "no" despite the presentation of the questions as in opposition to each other.

I also note the word "almost' ..which means it not always "natural".Which mean in humans maybe it wasn't NATURAL but "decided" by some its natural???
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
From Dictionary.com, we have....
1. a form of social organization in which the father is the supreme authority in the family, clan, or tribe and descent is reckoned in the male line, with the children belonging to the father's clan or tribe.
2. a society, community, or country based on this social organization.

In earlier US history, we clearly satisfied both definitions. Today, #1 looks obsolete. But #2 is murky. Men predominate in politics, but women are there, albeit in small percentages. Women dominate in voting (electing mostly men), but men are there in almost equal numbers. I don't buy the existence of patriarchy, unless women's predilection for electing men is a vestige of their former lower status. But this would seem to require that women have an underling mentality, which I don't believe to generally be true. We see the influence of women on politics in the state becoming more compassionate & caring. (I'll accept the argument that the state does a slipshod & inconsistent job at this though.) Moreover, politicians cater to their vote. Were they more uniform in their political views, they'd be an even more formidable force.
 
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Qhost

Exercising Thought
From Dictionary.com, we have....
1. a form of social organization in which the father is the supreme authority in the family, clan, or tribe and descent is reckoned in the male line, with the children belonging to the father's clan or tribe.
2. a society, community, or country based on this social organization.

In earlier US history, we clearly satisfied both definitions. Today, #1 looks obsolete. But #2 is murky. Men predominate in politics, but women are there, albeit in small percentages. Women dominate in voting (electing mostly men), but men are there in almost equal numbers. I don't buy the existence of patriarchy, unless women's predilection for electing men is a vestige of their former lower status. But this would seem to require that women have an underling mentality, which I don't believe to generally be true. We see the influence of women on politics in the state becoming more compassionate & caring. (I'll accept the argument that the state does a slipshod & inconsistent job at this though.) Moreover, politicians cater to their vote. Were they more uniform in their political views, they'd be an even more formidable force.

The patriarch does not exist as a wide-spread phenomenon any more. If you take the actual sociological definition of a patriarchy, then we clearly do not live in one.

However, feminist theory treats the patriarchy slightly different, they see it as a social construct which entails female oppression and male privilege.

I consider our society to have become too diverse and complex to be called a patriarchy or matriarchy in any sense. For every gender role or crazy law proposal which shows how we live in a 'female oppressed' society, you can find a gender role or crazy law proposal which demonstrates the exact opposite. You need to dilute either word beyond recognition to make it fit with society today, and frankly, it's used as a buzz-word now more than a valid sociological concept.

For those thinking, why is this a men's issue? Well most MRA's deny the existence of a patriarchy, and for some reason, when a man raises a male issue someone often replies 'Oh look at the anti-male society we live in!'. Here's an example from Dallasapple...
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The patriarch does not exist as a wide-spread phenomenon any more. If you take the actual sociological definition of a patriarchy, then we clearly do not live in one.
However, feminist theory treats the patriarchy slightly different, they see it as a social construct which entails female oppression and male privilege.
I consider our society to have become too diverse and complex to be called a patriarchy or matriarchy in any sense. For every gender role or crazy law proposal which shows how we live in a 'female oppressed' society, you can find a gender role or crazy law proposal which demonstrates the exact opposite. You need to dilute either word beyond recognition to make it fit with society today, and frankly, it's used as a buzz-word now more than a valid sociological concept.
For those thinking, why is this a men's issue? Well most MRA's deny the existence of a patriarchy, and for some reason, when a men raises a male issue someone often replies 'Oh look at the anti-male society we live in!'. Here's an example from Dallasapple...
I see societies as having varying elements of patriarchy & matriarchy.
This is analogous to economic systems having their socialistic & their
capitalistic components. Seldom are things ever pure. (Purity is over-rated.)
 

Qhost

Exercising Thought
I see societies as having varying elements of patriarchy & matriarchy.
This is analogous to economic systems having their socialistic & their
capitalistic components. Seldom are things ever pure. (Purity is over-rated.)

I think this leads on to the ultimate key point which should connect both feminists and MRA.

BOTH genders suffer from gender roles, crazy law proposals and protests against their voice.

You cannot have equality of all if you just focus on one gender. Likewise, women's problems would not be solved if all feminists became MRA's, and vice versa.

A little intellectual honesty goes a long way, you can never have enough.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I think it would depend on country.

I go with the definition of patriarchy as the oxford dictionary says and I dont really buy on the expansion done by some feminist conceptualisations,

I think most if not all cultures have sexism in it and it needs to go away ASAP.

I do think patrilineality smells to me like a form of patriarchy in the sense that I am very aware of language and it's inpact on how we think about the world that surround us.

I think most languages having a "he" and other "male means neutral" in language do are a lingering remain of patriarchy, and ñi would hope they go out soon, but would be surprised to see that happening.

The thing is that patriarchy or matriarchy are just specific forms of sexism. Many other forms of sexism exist and may be more predominant and make problems for both male and female alike.

I am cool with gender having sumbolic meaning, but nothing beyond that. We should know and understand that what matters most is the specific person more than any single characteristic of said person. If you dont look at the whole person, you miss the whole person.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I think this leads on to the ultimate key point which should connect both feminists and MRA.

BOTH genders suffer from gender roles, crazy law proposals and protests against their voice.

You cannot have equality of all if you just focus on one gender. Likewise, women's problems would not be solved if all feminists became MRA's, and vice versa.

A little intellectual honesty goes a long way, you can never have enough.

I feel you can be both.

Ideally, I would think it would be best if everyone was both too.

Some people will spend more time of their lifes on one cause than the other, and that is good. It doesnt mean they dont think the other cause is important.
 

Shermana

Heretic
These strike me as poorly formed, illogical questions, since the answer to both questions could conceivably be "yes" or "no" despite the presentation of the questions as in opposition to each other. Could you rephrase the questions, please?

Sure, it was a bit unclear. The intent of my use of the term Patriarchy as I used it above was:

Is there such thing as an institutionalized Male-dominated system where women are deliberately suppressed for purposes of being more easily controlled for the sake of the males, or is it just a sort of natural development that most if not nearly all cultures worldwide have simultaneously developed into where males are dominant based on biological factors that are influenced by the economic and societal conditions which otherwise turn into a system where Males are in charge and women serve in "secondary roles"?

In other words:

Is the "Patriarchical System" which Feminists often claim is oppressing women an actual reality and construct with an institutionalized backing, or is it the product of a natural cultural development based on biological and social realities that various tribes and communities have simply adopted into their standard norms, which women themselves have accepted and mostly participated and advanced willfully?

This then goes into the next question of whether there's legitimate grounds for the claims that women were regarded as "property" and "Cattle" in a way which was against their wills and interests, based on the societal conditions of the time.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Sure, it was a bit unclear. The intent of my use of the term Patriarchy as I stated above was:

Is there such thing as an institutionalized Male-dominated system where women are deliberately suppressed for purposes of being more easily controlled for the sake of the males, or is it just a sort of natural development that most if not nearly all cultures worldwide have simultaneously developed into where males are dominant based on biological factors that are influenced by the economic and societal conditions which otherwise turn into a system where Males are in charge and women serve in "secondary roles"?

In other words:

Is the "Patriarchical System" which Feminists often claim is oppressing women an actual reality and construct with an institutionalized backing, or is it the product of a natural cultural development based on biological and social realities that various cultures have simply adopted into their standard norms, which women themselves have accepted and mostly participated and advanced willfully?

Thanks for the clarification!
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I think patriarchy might (or might not) have some basis in evolutionary psychology, but that it is more largely a cultural issue. For instance, there seems to be some evidence from the evolutionary sciences that females tend to be the sex among humans that are most likely to leave the group their were born into in order to seek mates. If true, that would provide some encouragement to patriarchal systems.

But I don't see any evolutionary origins of patriarchy as being decisive in creating patriarchies in the fullest sense of that word. That is, there is nothing in females leaving their birth groups that would necessitate their repression as a group. Thus, I think the repression associated with strong patriarchal systems is most likely a cultural development.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sure, it was a bit unclear. The intent of my use of the term Patriarchy as I used it above was:

Is there such thing as an institutionalized Male-dominated system where women are deliberately suppressed for purposes of being more easily controlled for the sake of the males, or is it just a sort of natural development that most if not nearly all cultures worldwide have simultaneously developed into where males are dominant based on biological factors that are influenced by the economic and societal conditions which otherwise turn into a system where Males are in charge and women serve in "secondary roles"?

In other words:

Is the "Patriarchical System" which Feminists often claim is oppressing women an actual reality and construct with an institutionalized backing, or is it the product of a natural cultural development based on biological and social realities that various tribes and communities have simply adopted into their standard norms, which women themselves have accepted and mostly participated and advanced willfully?

This then goes into the next question of whether there's legitimate grounds for the claims that women were regarded as "property" and "Cattle" in a way which was against their wills and interests, based on the societal conditions of the time.
It's an extremely broad question, since it refers to ancient times as well as modern times, and I agree with Me Myself that it depends on the country.

I believe the most accurate depiction falls somewhere between your two options here. I don't view society in free countries today as typically being organized in a unified enough way to do something like, say, have most males deliberately suppress women to be more controlled, but at the same time I also don't view it as primarily based on biological and social realities. Rather, I view it generally as a set of interwoven social constructs, often unconscious ones, that typically lead to inaccurate assumptions about women and men and perpetuate from generation to generation.

There were certainly times in history, and in some places today, where patriarchy is institutionalized. Modern day Islamic regimes which you cited are examples, because some don't allow women to vote, or hold office, or drive cars, and others only recently have granted some of those rights. Many countries in the Americas and Europe only granted equal voting rights within the last century or so (with Switzerland having some parts where only men could vote until as late as 1991). There have been some other laws, like requiring woman to take the family name of the man upon marriage, which have generally been phased out over the previous decades. Another example is the Roman Catholic Church (with 1.2 billion nominal adherents) that expressedly disallows women from holding positions as priests, bishops, cardinals, or the pope. There's a Hadith that says women can't lead men in prayer, so in most places for the world's 1.5 billion Muslims, men control the religion.

But most I believe are more subtle, and less conscious. An example would be the trend of, when men and women get married, the woman typically replaces her family name with the man's. If they have a child, despite the mother carrying the child for nine months and giving birth, it's almost always given the father's family name (or, in some countries, both the names of the father and mother, of which only the father's is passed onto that child's child). There's nothing enforcing this; it's just generally how things are done, and most men I believe would be very uncomfortable if the opposite idea was even proposed (where they change their family name to be the same as that of their wife's, and then the child is given the mother's family name). This wasn't always the case everywhere; many cultures including several Native American tribes have a more matrilineal rather than patrilineal system. Some laws in the western world used to enforce patrilineal systems, but today in many places this is no longer institutionalized, and merely a cultural thing.

Another example is the medical profession. Prior to the mid-1800s in the United States, there were no female graduates from medical school. It's likely that some people may have viewed biological differences between men and women as being the basis for this. But by the early 1980's, up to about one quarter of graduates from medical school were women, and today, about half of graduates from medical school are women. So it wasn't a major difference in ability; it was something about culture, with incorrect assumptions about abilities, and this culture did change dramatically over time.

Today, there are still many positions of power that women are under-represented in, though generally gaining ground. There was a study by Credit Suisse in 2008 showed that corporations that have some women on their boards outperformed comparable companies that have all-male boards. Yet, women make up 15% of board seats in U.S. companies, and one third of companies do not have a single female board member (despite women making up a much larger portion of business school graduates than a mere 15%). Two more studies (by Catalyst and McKinsey & Co.) showed that in the Fortune 500, companies with 3 or more women on their boards outperformed even more, on average. Yet another study showed that, although fewer than 5% of Fortune 500 companies have a female CEO, the group of companies that do have a female CEO statistically outperformed the companies that have a male CEO. It's difficult to say what the cause of the outperformance of those mixed-gender boards is and female-led companies is, but either way, it doesn't seem that business ability is the crucial reason for the 85%/15% ratio of men to women in boardrooms across the country.

As Kerr pointed out, I do believe that the patriarchy that's in place can be harmful to boys and men in some cases, rather than just women. Some professions like nursing overwhelmingly consist of women. As Curious George pointed out with a thread in the political debates section, men are greatly underrepresented as teachers, and especially as teachers of young children. Gender roles can create a stigma for men that want to enter certain reputable professions, like nursing, or dental assistants, or teachers. The ideas that have floated around in cultures about how men are not or should not be as sensitive towards their children, or shouldn't show affection in certain ways, can be harmful to men. Boys that display feminine behavior are statistically much more policed by the adults in their life to confirm, than girls that display masculine behavior. Boys therefore have less freedom to express themselves in this regard, by having gender roles more strictly enforced on them as children.

So, I believe patriarchy still does exist as a set of social and in some cases institutional major influences on cultures around the world, and that its existence is harmful not only to women, but to many men as well. I believe it may disproportionally benefit the men at the top of political, social, and economic structures (with a stricter hold on governments, world religions, and corporations, certain professions like surgeons and big budget movie directors), while generally being harmful to most men and women that make up the bulk of society (such as putting downward pressure on women as they climb up through social structures, creating imbalances in things like family names for women, stigmatizing men that wish to pursue certain reputable, rewarding, and well-paying professions that are culturally reserved for women, forcing stricter and sometimes emotionally repressive gender roles on boys and men compared to girls and women, among other things.)
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
Yet, women make up 15% of board seats in U.S. companies, and one third of companies do not have a single female board member (despite women making up a much larger portion of business school graduates than a mere 15%).
15% is much higher than I thought it would be... given how long it usually takes for someone to make it into a position of authority such as being on the board of directors the speed with which this number has grown is staggering. Shouldn't be that long before numbers approach equitable levels (as compared to staff seniority numbers in field rather than graduates - which is a rather weak comparison unless you have evidence which suggests that the two are very strongly positively correlated) at those sort of rates, a positive sign IMO.

The same likely holds true for quite a few professions where there is a large latency period between study and professional success / emergence as a real force in their field; though I'd love to see the stats on that.

As for the Fortune 500, that is a deplorable figure... maybe they use more conservative hiring procedures that put greater emphasis on seniority and the like? that would be more inclined to favour men (at least for now)
 
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Galen.Iksnudnard

Active Member
I think patriarchy exists in the sense that men somehow or another "seized" the dominant power of society, and hence subsequent generations of society were more or less set up around male dominance.

This still exists today, for instance as a male if I go for a job in certain areas, I don't have to go above and beyond the minimum or average qualifications, and then settle for 60 or 70% of the pay anyways.
 
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