Parables, can we break the code?

[AK4]

LOL! You make suffering for the kingdom take on a whole new perspective!

Those that God is calling and choosing are to suffer right now in this life. This is their "great" tribulation or as you believe their "hell", their Lake of Fire.

THE LIFE OF A BELIEVER​

Let’s see again just what is involved in living the live of a believer:

1. "For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship [Gk: achievement], created in Christ Jesus unto [unto what?] … unto GOOD WORKS, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). We are not saved by OUR WORKS, but we are preordained to walk in GOD’S GOOD WORKS, nonetheless.
2. "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3;3). Notice that Eph. 2:10 says that we are "created IN Christ." Something new happens when we are "IN" Christ. There is a NEW birth and there is a NEW creation, "Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE [Gk: creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (II Cor. 5:17). Albeit, this new creation has its perils as we will see in the next verse.
3. "Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus [as a new and different creature] SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION." (II Tim. 3:12). This is not just a possibility; it is an absolute PROMISE.
4. "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through MUCH TRIBULATION [pressure, afflictions] enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
5. "For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged. But when we ARE JUDGED, we are CHASTENED [Greek: paideuo, to train, educate, discipline, punish, chastise, instruct, learn, and teach] of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world [at the great white throne judgment]" (I Cor. 11:31-32).
6. "And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children, My Son, despise not you the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him. For whom the Lord loves He CHASTENS [Prov. 13:24] AND SCOURGES [see I Pet. 5:9] EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES. But if you be without chastisement, whereof ALL are partakers, then are you ********, and not sons" (Heb. 12:5-8). "Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be REVEALED BY FIRE; and the fire shall try EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3;13).

 

[Heneni]

It no uncertain terms, the bible indicates we are blessed if we suffer for the kingdom. Some would think then we shouldnt mind suffering then.

Suffering is just that.....suffering. If you think about it, any of us can follow a god who promises sunshine and roses. But it takes a different level of commitment if you are willing to have no sunshine and roses, but instead have a whole lot of suffering. This is where i think christians have missed the mark. A god that will allow you to suffer doesnt seem like the nice teddy bear huggable god that we all want him to be. And they reject the concept of suffering.

The wisdom of suffering lies in the fact that when you suffer not only is your love for god tested but your faith too. Which is very valuable.

If a christian is not rejected by the world, im inclined to think they have one foot in it.

But the wisdom of god is different to the wisdom of the world. God chooses the low-lives and changes their world around. Many people are attracted to god, because churches preach that god wants to bless you, and get you out of your misserable financial situation and relieve you from any suffering. They have errer in my opinion. The irony here is, that god chooses the low-lives because they understand suffering, not because they want to escape it.

Suffering for the kingdom is a requirement to glory.

If we share in the sufferings of christ we will also share in his glory. There isnt another way to share in his glory other than by suffering. Suffering is an offensive concept. How can god allow this and that to happen to me?

Job is a very good example of a man, who suffered not because he deserved it. And god restored to him what he had and more. In the same way, but also in a different way, god will restore that which the 'locusts' have stolen and give us back our former glory, and more.

We were once, glorious beings, in the presence of god everyday, but we fell from great heights and lost our glory. We were put on this earth, because we wanted to be seperated from the rule of god, because we realised we were glorious. But glory without god, results in disgrace. A hard lesson we all have learnt. Or maybe some of us didnt. But one day, that which we have lost, will be restored to us. That which satan stole from us because of our identity will be returned. And much more.

In order for god to restore us to our former glory, we need to trust him again, submit under his rule, and suffer. We are all in this world, which is under the control of the evil one. We cannot fit in here and say we fit into the kingdom of god. You cannot feel comfortable in both.

There is really a great amount of power in suffering. Jesus suffered, and the result was glory. Lazaurs suffered death and after his death some of the jews started to believe in jesus. The apostels suffered, and they too have made great advances in the kingdom even after many years of being 'dead'.

Love is self-sacrificing. That is true love. To give up oneself for the sake of others. To give up oneself for the sake of the advancement of the kingdom of god, is love. To want for ourselves, the luxuries which this world offers, the hypnotic self-delusions which it offers and which seem to be making others so happy, is a snare to a christian.

If Paul did not suffer, if the guy did not have himself beaten, and persecuted and basically bashed up and found stranded, going hungry and the works, id be inclined to think he missed it. We all have the ability to profess that Jesus is Lord and the he is our master. But the proof is in the pudding..and the pudding is suffering.

Jesus said....'and they will hate you for my names sake', and he said 'take up your cross and follow me'. Lets see what the cross meant for jesus....

It meant rejection by those he loved, it meant physical discomfort, it meant being alone, it meant suffering for others who wont even look your way, it meant making himself of no repution, the son of god, making himself human so that he can help us, it meant ridicule, it meant being accused falsely, and it meant death.

Someone is following jesus when they too suffer. It means they are following the example of christ.

Heneni

 

[AK4]

I agree with everything you put but this

We were once, glorious beings, in the presence of god everyday, but we fell from great heights and lost our glory. We were put on this earth, because we wanted to be seperated from the rule of god, because we realised we were glorious. But glory without god, results in disgrace. A hard lesson we all have learnt. Or maybe some of us didnt. But one day, that which we have lost, will be restored to us. That which satan stole from us because of our identity will be returned. And much more.

I dont where you get this from scripture.

 

[Heneni]

It is not possible to reconcile AK4 to god if he himself didnt break the conciliation. God came to reconcile you because you use to be in right standing with him. When were you in right standing with him?

It is not possible to be restored to former glory unless you had it before.

God is in the restoring business. If you did not exist with god before then why would he have to restore you?

The bible says that while WE were still sinner jesus died for us? Where were you when this happened? You werent born yet...but you already existed.

Everyone of us had our start in heaven, even satan, and if we were banished out of it, it means we were glorious beings and lost that glory when we fell.

If we didnt fall like satan, then we would still be in heaven.

Heneni

 

[AK4]

It is not possible to reconcile AK4 to god if he himself didnt break the conciliation. God came to reconcile you because you use to be in right standing with him. When were you in right standing with him?

It is not possible to be restored to former glory unless you had it before.

God is in the restoring business. If you did not exist with god before then why would he have to restore you?

The bible says that while WE were still sinner jesus died for us? Where were you when this happened? You werent born yet...but you already existed.

Everyone of us had our start in heaven, even satan, and if we were banished out of it, it means we were glorious beings and lost that glory when we fell.

If we didnt fall like satan, then we would still be in heaven.

Heneni

Im am just going to go on memory here but i do not remember a scripture that anyone, save Jesus, was going to be returned to their former glory.

As for satan-- he never fell. he was a "liar from the beginning". Scripture never says he had any glory

 

[Heneni]

Romans 2:7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

1 Cor 15:43 The body it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

2 Cor 3:10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

 

[AK4]

Romans 2:7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

1 Cor 15:43 The body it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

2 Cor 3:10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Well some of those scriptures you just quoted proves that reincarnation is not true

1 Cor 15:43 The body it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Now the other verses are showing us seeking for it and nowhere say we had it before or are returning to our former glory

2 Cor 3:10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts

This verse is close but its talking about the old covenant verses the new which is in Jesus.

 

[Heneni]

I dont see how any of the scriptures disprove re-incarnation. The scriptures show what type of body and what type of resurrection we will have when our natural body is discarded and we put on a spiritual body. I dont believe we put on a spiritual body when we die, i believe we are re-clothed in a natural body. The final enemy to be put under is death...and if you die and you get your spiritual body then the final enemy has already been put under.

I understand if you dont believe in re-incarnation. But then if you believe paul...then you must believe what he said that you were once under the law and now you are under grace. If you didnt live under the law...neither could you be living under grace.

heneni

 

[AK4]

I dont see how any of the scriptures disprove re-incarnation. The scriptures show what type of body and what type of resurrection we will have when our natural body is discarded and we put on a spiritual body. I dont believe we put on a spiritual body when we die, i believe we are re-clothed in a natural body. The final enemy to be put under is death...and if you die and you get your spiritual body then the final enemy has already been put under.

I understand if you dont believe in re-incarnation. But then if you believe paul...then you must believe what he said that you were once under the law and now you are under grace. If you didnt live under the law...neither could you be living under grace.

heneni

1 Cor 15:43 The body it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

This verse is showing how you cant have reincarnation--you die once and then you will be raised to glory. Just because he repeats the same thing over 4 times doesnt say you die 4 times and then raised 4 times. It sticks with what Paul was saying in Romans "it is appointed once for man to die".

 

[Heneni]

Hi AK4

First of all id like to say that if you dont believe in re-incarnation i will in no way hold it against you.

You might want to look into a few things. First of all the jews believe in re-incarnation, and secondly references to re-incarnation was removed out of the bible.

If you die and you recieve your new spiritual body, then why do you need to get another spirtual body at the last trumpet when we are all said to be changed in a twinkling of an eye?

Once again. You may have your own beliefs about re-incarnation and that is fine. I'll only give you what i believe and you must certainly do with it what you wish.

As far as the scripture goes about 'it is appointed for man to die once and then judgment' It is my opinion, that it means we dont die several times before we are judged, rather everytime a person dies, he is judged.

Depending on how much the person has grown and how much he has learnt he is judged accordingly. But until such time the final enemy death is abolished, we are not getting our spiritual bodies, and hence we are not going to heaven yet. If we did get our spiritual bodies when we died, we would be in heaven, and then there would be no need for the resurrection where it is described in the bible we get our spiritual bodies.

This does not mean that no one has gone to paradise yet, what it means is that until you have obtained the 'prize' the one paul was running after, you will not be going to paradise, but will have to wait until you have run the race and have obtained the prize. The prize is...to be abcent from the body is to be present with the lord. The place where we are present with the lord, is in paradise, the place he said the thief next to him would be going. It is from paradise, that i believe god sends his workers back to earth. So in that sense it isnt re-incarnation but rather incarnation. I have a thread about that somewhere. Paradise is a holding place for the spirits who are in christ. Until such time that the final trumpet sounds,these spirits have not received their resurrected spiritual bodies yet. That is why paul said...that only at the sound of the last trumpet do we (and him) get our new bodies.

Heneni

 

[AK4]

[

quote=Heneni;1299584]Hi AK4

First of all id like to say that if you dont believe in re-incarnation i will in no way hold it against you.

You might want to look into a few things. First of all the jews believe in re-incarnation, and secondly references to re-incarnation was removed out of the bible.

The Jews believe in a lot of things, some believe in a hell too and look how God was dealing with them. The Sadduces didnt believe in a resurrection either. They are just as confused as everyone else.

If you die and you recieve your new spiritual body, then why do you need to get another spirtual body at the last trumpet when we are all said to be changed in a twinkling of an eye?

You die and stay dead until the last trump then you are given a spiritual body at the resurrection.

Once again. You may have your own beliefs about re-incarnation and that is fine. I'll only give you what i believe and you must certainly do with it what you wish.

As far as the scripture goes about 'it is appointed for man to die once and then judgment' It is my opinion, that it means we dont die several times before we are judged, rather everytime a person dies, he is judged.

Now you say it is in your opinion, now compare that to "This is what the Sovereign Lord says". Thats mankinds flaw. We form our own opinions and dont go by what the Lord actually says.

Depending on how much the person has grown and how much he has learnt he is judged accordingly. But until such time the final enemy death is abolished, we are not getting our spiritual bodies, and hence we are not going to heaven yet. If we did get our spiritual bodies when we died, we would be in heaven, and then there would be no need for the resurrection where it is described in the bible we get our spiritual bodies.

Exactly so when you die you are dead til resurrection and then you are given a spiritual body

This does not mean that no one has gone to paradise yet, what it means is that until you have obtained the 'prize' the one paul was running after, you will not be going to paradise, but will have to wait until you have run the race and have obtained the prize. The prize is...to be abcent from the body is to be present with the lord. The place where we are present with the lord, is in paradise, the place he said the thief next to him would be going. It is from paradise, that i believe god sends his workers back to earth. So in that sense it isnt re-incarnation but rather incarnation. I have a thread about that somewhere. Paradise is a holding place for the spirits who are in christ. Until such time that the final trumpet sounds,these spirits have not received their resurrected spiritual bodies yet. That is why paul said...that only at the sound of the last trumpet do we (and him) get our new bodies.

No one has ascend to heaven except Jesus as of right now. Check the scriptures

 

[Heneni]

Paradise is not heaven though.

As i said. I believe in re-incarnation you dont have to. In the end i dont think it makes a difference to your salvation. It has just helped me understand scripture better. Shall we then agree to disagree?

Heneni

 

[AK4]

Paradise is not heaven though.

As i said. I believe in re-incarnation you dont have to. In the end i dont think it makes a difference to your salvation. It has just helped me understand scripture better. Shall we then agree to disagree?

Heneni

I dont agree, but if you want to not further investigate or question what you believe (even question that what i am saying could be false) then thats fine, i will not continue, but i will expose anything you say that contradicts the Word of God.

 

[idea]

Hello everyone and thank you for this opportunity to engage in a debate with you.

I am particularly fond of the parables. I also like to hear other peoples interpretation of such.

I have found that I often have a different interpretation of the parables than what others do.

I love parables too. I think we all are supposed to interpret it differently as we are all at different places in our life, and need slightly different guidance as to where to go... I mean some things are universal, to love and be selfless etc... but parables allow everyone to get something personal out of it that applies to us specifically.

This is what I think it is telling us:

So the moral of the story is...show love and let it be credited to your account, show hate, and you will recieve hate.

This parable is very often interpreted as Jesus dying for our sins and forgave us, so we have to forgive others.

But the parable does not indicate that the king himself payed the wicked servants debt off.

To put it simply God somehow keeps 'score' regarding the love and the hate we show.

When someone forgives us a great deal, some of our debt towards that person is deleted. Now if we dont want to forgive someone else for a little mistake, then god puts the huge debt back into our account. Since God is the administrator of the accounts there is no partiality!

This is why the bible say...owe no one anything other than love!!!!

It also puts into perspective the fact that we have to love our enemies.

If we love our enemies, their account is deposited with love, love which they did not deserve. So they owe love. By being lovable to them instead of nasty, we are deposting more and more love into their account. They therefore owe more and more love. Since they are giving hate, hate is owed to them. If I demonstrated hate, hate would be owed to me.

So if we want our enemies to be judged by God, instead of us judging them, and wanting to pay them back, hand them over to the ULTIMATE judge, then God will avenge us, and will turn them over to torturers that will pay them back the hate that they have sown, when he thinks the time to settle their account has come. But if you show hate to your enemies, you will be on the recieving end of the torturers yourself.

The purpose of this is that we learn to sow good things, and so even our enemies could become soft hearted and lovable if we dont interfere with the vengence process. We ourselves will reap what we sow.

The jail and the torturers is not hell. It is justice in this life time, and a way for us to learn how to do good instead of evil.

There is no way for us to escape the debts we have built up.

So what debt do we owe to God? We owe him love, and lots of it. And he is indeed worthy of that love.

Love
Heneni

There are multiple levels to it, each level is valid I think.

Luke 6:
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

If you only love those who love you, those who give to you, then you don't really love the person, you just love being loved if that makes sense? To have real love, that is selfless is to love without wanting anything in return....

 

[Heneni]

I love parables too. I think we all are supposed to interpret it differently as we are all at different places in our life, and need slightly different guidance as to where to go... I mean some things are universal, to love and be selfless etc... but parables allow everyone to get something personal out of it that applies to us specifically.



There are multiple levels to it, each level is valid I think.

Luke 6:
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

If you only love those who love you, those who give to you, then you don't really love the person, you just love being loved if that makes sense? To have real love, that is selfless is to love without wanting anything in return....

Ahhh...I nearly forgot that this thread was about parables. I use it for basically any concept that is up for some debate in the bible, which is basically nearly all of it! I think your interpretation of the parable makes sense. My only question would be. Why would the king send the wicked servant to be tortured until he paid back everything he owed? Gods is love and part of that love is being just. So even though he loves the wicked servant he still allowed him to be tortured until he had paid back his debt. What do you think?

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

I dont agree, but if you want to not further investigate or question what you believe (even question that what i am saying could be false) then thats fine, i will not continue, but i will expose anything you say that contradicts the Word of God.

Well you have failed to explain how someone can recieve a glorified body when they die and then god needs to resurrect them again to give them another glorified body when the last trumpet sounds. Shall we investigate that?

Heneni

 

[AK4]

Well you have failed to explain how someone can recieve a glorified body when they die and then god needs to resurrect them again to give them another glorified body when the last trumpet sounds. Shall we investigate that?

Heneni

No. You are twisting up my words. You die once and then at the resurrection/last trump, for the just they get a glorified body. The unjust it doesnt specifically say, but I think it is in the book of Ezekiel where it describes how the resurrection is going to be.

We know that the just will be like Him (Jesus). So maybe the just will be able to do everything that Jesus was able to do after His resurrection and His apperance to the apostles. The unjust will be given mortal bodies again and this time they will be going through the lake of fire--not literal fire, but the consuming fire of God that purges out the carnal mind and then when they come out they will be just like Jesus.

I would use scripture to back all this up but im at work so i dont have the time. You just got to remember---

[A] "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).

"It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies]; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies]…" (I Cor. 15:44).

[C] "Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY…" (Phil. 3:21).

[D] "If I have told you EARTHLY things [first], and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward]?" (John 3:12).
​

 

[Heneni]

So where do people's spirits go when they are dead then?

 

[Heneni]

Also, if we die and go to heaven, which is what you probably think happens, why does god have to resurrect us, infuse our spirits back into a body, when we are happily living in heaven already?

Heneni

 

[AK4]

Also, if we die and go to heaven, which is what you probably think happens, why does god have to resurrect us, infuse our spirits back into a body, when we are happily living in heaven already?

So where do people's spirits go when they are dead then?

Heneni

No i dont believe that. That is another false doctrine traditional christainity teaches. Its a flat out lie. We dont die and go to heaven or "hell". When we die our bodies return to dust and our spirit returns to God

Ec 12:7 -and the dust (mankind, check Genesis 3:19) returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Its our memory that God stores, per se, until He gives us a new body

Job 14:14 - If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Like you said it makes no sense for someone to go to heaven or hell for God to resurrect (bring back to life) someone who is already alive, whether in a "hell" or heaven.