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Parables, can we break the code?
- Thread starter Heneni
- Start date
AK4
Well-Known Member
Heneni
Miss Independent
Who do you think this scripture is talking about?
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
If this is the fate of somene as described above, then why do you think there is going to be a resurrection of the wicked where they will go through another fire and come out pure on the other end. As far as i can tell the children of god are like metal, they are refined and made pure by the refining fire of god, which isnt to come, but is already here, purifying them, and that same fire burns to ashes those that are not made of metal. When then will the wicked turn into metal?
What is the second death then? It cant be going through a fire and coming out the ohter end alive.
Heneni.
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
If this is the fate of somene as described above, then why do you think there is going to be a resurrection of the wicked where they will go through another fire and come out pure on the other end. As far as i can tell the children of god are like metal, they are refined and made pure by the refining fire of god, which isnt to come, but is already here, purifying them, and that same fire burns to ashes those that are not made of metal. When then will the wicked turn into metal?
What is the second death then? It cant be going through a fire and coming out the ohter end alive.
Heneni.
AK4
Well-Known Member
Eze 36:26 - A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Remember i put per se. Also remember God always speaks to the multitudes in parables which means it is not literally the way He says it.
Now when He says a new spirit what does He mean? Is it really a whole new spirit where we are somebody else? No. Lets look at this verse
1Sa 10:6 - And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
Same person a new spirit.
AK4
Well-Known Member
im sorry it was Hebrews
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heneni
Miss Independent
How does having a new spirit=memory?
Nope your not there yet, keep on trying.
If god said in Ezekiel that he was going to give us a new heart....then he could not have been talking about you, because you were not born yet, or you did not exist yet or so you may think. But please change your story if you need to. You say that the natural comes before the spiritual, so since this is the first time you are existing naturally, this is the first spirit you have and hence this spirit = memory = heart must already be new. But for something to be new, it had to be old. So what happened to your old spirit = old memory = old heart?
Heneni
AK4
Well-Known Member
As for the impossible, it is talking of this age, not in the ages to come. For it is Gods will to have all men saved and come to the knowledge of Truth
In this age, His elect are going through that Lake of Fire which is the second death which is the death of the carnal mind. The first death is being buried with Christ--These deaths are talking about the spiritual, not necessarily the physical. And this is what will happen to the rest (the wicked)--same process but in a different age.
What is the second death? Its just what i put
AK4
Well-Known Member
No i wont change my story. Yes this is what you would call a new heart because its my first, but i will be given a new one. So that makes my heart now old and the one given in the future new
Heneni
Miss Independent
2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
What then do you think is the destruction of ungodly men?
The fire is here already, whatever it purifies becomes holy and returns to god, whatever is burns up, is being destroyed. Ungodly men are not entirely gone yet because the day of judgment where they will suffer the second death is not here yet. God is patient, and allows for time. But the destruction of ungodly men will come. Resurrected them and sending them through another fire is not scriptural.
Heneni
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
What then do you think is the destruction of ungodly men?
The fire is here already, whatever it purifies becomes holy and returns to god, whatever is burns up, is being destroyed. Ungodly men are not entirely gone yet because the day of judgment where they will suffer the second death is not here yet. God is patient, and allows for time. But the destruction of ungodly men will come. Resurrected them and sending them through another fire is not scriptural.
Heneni
Heneni
Miss Independent
2 Peter 2: 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
The day of judgement is coming, however god is at the same time continuing the punishment of the unrighteous. If the punishement is already continuing, then hell is not an upcoming event. Rather THIS here is it. It seems like people dont want to consider this earth as hell because they expect even want hell to be worse. But the same people who think god is a monster, will realise that he wasnt. That earth here is not as bad as they think hell ought to be, so they cannot speak out against god if they enjoy it so much here.
The day of judgement is coming, however god is at the same time continuing the punishment of the unrighteous. If the punishement is already continuing, then hell is not an upcoming event. Rather THIS here is it. It seems like people dont want to consider this earth as hell because they expect even want hell to be worse. But the same people who think god is a monster, will realise that he wasnt. That earth here is not as bad as they think hell ought to be, so they cannot speak out against god if they enjoy it so much here.
Heneni
Miss Independent
So you are going to get your new heart when? When you get your new body? Then how is your old heart, the stony type of heart, the rebellious, cold and unresponsive type of heart that god said he was going to change helping you in your spiritual journey thus far?
God said that his people were praising him with their lips but their hearts were far from him. If you dont have a new heart yet, then wouldnt you be worried your doing the same thing?
1 Timothy 1:5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith
If you dont have your new heart yet, how can you do what is required in 1 Timothy? If you dont have a new heart then you cannot have a pure one.
Please feel free to jump in anytime.
heneni
AK4
Well-Known Member
Oh Really? Now you are twisting up my words again "Resurrected them and sending them through another fire is not scriptural". You are mixing your beliefs into what i believe and trying to prove me wrong. This is what i am saying--Apparently the fire isnt going through all right now, if it was you wouldnt have atheists and satanists and such now would you, who actually hate God. Is the fire that purges everyone, the Lake of Fire/Consuming Fire, going through them right now as you believe. NO. So your theory of this fire is already kindled in everyone right now falls short. This Fire is only going through those who God has chosen in this age. That is how the second death will have no power over them--why? Because they have already died the second death--the death of the carnal mind.
Well lets just go through this and i will show you what is scriptural--
Isa 26:9 - With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Is the inhabitants of the whole world learning righteouseness yet? No.
Who are going through the fiery trial? His church/people (its not the traditional churches out there either)
1Pe 1:7 - That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Who has the the faith? The true faith? Not the unscriptural doctrines people follow--thats not faith to believe in lies. (trinity, hell, etc etc etc) But that for other threads
1Pe 4:12 - Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Did you know that all the parables are about the called, and the called and chosen? This would become a long post if i dont stop here. Next issue--
Really? Are all the unrighteous being punished right now? Come on now you know they are not.
Yes judgment has begun to the called and chosen not the just called ones
1Pe 4:17 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Cant you see whos being judged right now? And i will leave it at that for now
AK4
Well-Known Member
I thought i answered it. What was the question again?
Heneni
Miss Independent
So then how does new spirit = memory?
Peter says there is going to be a destruction of ungodly men. You say they are all going to be saved....
If new spirit = new heart then what happened to the old one?
Heneni
AK4
Well-Known Member
Okay lets look at a verse and where it says heart it can also mean mind
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
HEART--
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 03820[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]bl[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]a form of (03824)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Leb[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TWOT - 1071a[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]labe[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Masculine [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
- inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
- inner part, midst
- midst (of things)
- heart (of man)
- soul, heart (of man)
- mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
- inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
- conscience
- heart (of moral character)
- as seat of appetites
- as seat of emotions and passions 1a
- as seat of courage
and SPIRIT----
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 07307[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]xwr[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (07306)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Ruwach[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TWOT - 2131a[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]roo'-akhSo you are given a new spirit,mind, heart.
- wind, breath, mind, spirit
[/FONT]
You recieve a new body, one of immortality or deathlessness, not a literal new spirit and heart, but a new mind and heart to be able to follow God. You are taking this too literal. You recieve a new heart meaning a willingness to follow God and all His commandments
Yes in this age and the age to come they will be destroyed--meaning without life-- but God will raise all to life because the Son came to save those who have been destroyed or lost
Matt.18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. LOST---
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 622[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]ajpovllumi[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (575) and the base of (3639)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Apollumi[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1:394,67[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]ap-ol'-loo-mee[/FONT]The word destuction comes also from this greek word apollumi
- to destroy
- to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
- render useless
- to kill
- to declare that one must be put to death
- metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
- to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
- to destroy
- to lose
Burned out in the lake of fire/God our consuming fire/second death
AK4
Well-Known Member
I had a nice answer with the scriptures to back it up but i unplugged my cpu by mistake in the middle of posting it so now you get the short answer without the scriptures
BTW i see you changed your avatar
Anyway God gave man an experience of evil in this life
"...It is an experience of EVIL God has given to the sons of humanity to HUMBLE them by it" (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Old Testament Version).
Now without all the scriptures to back it up, but they are there, He takes responsiblility for this. He place man in the Garden. He placed the tree of good AND evil in the Garden and He formed the devil/serpent/satan (In the book of Job)
God is the ultimate cause of everything and for that, since He create mankind to experience this He holds Himself responsible to correct it so the Father formed Jehovah/Jesus and then Jesus under the instruction of the Father created everything esle--satan, man and the universe and all that is contained in it spiritual and physical. And since He created everything this way He is going to correct it all. Why He chose this way when He could of just did it at first? It has something to do with learning and appreciation.
So Jesus had to come to die for our sins because He was responsible for making manking that way--"Can the pot say to the Potter why did you make me this way" (Romans)
This is the short version and i hope this helps
Heneni
Miss Independent
The parable of the bad manager.
Luke 161Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2So he called him in and asked him, `What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.'
3"The manager said to himself, `What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I'm not strong enough to dig, and I'm ashamed to beg-- 4I know what I'll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.'
5"So he called in each one of his master's debtors. He asked the first, `How much do you owe my master?'
6" `Eight hundred gallonsA of olive oil,' he replied.
"The manager told him, `Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred.'
7"Then he asked the second, `And how much do you owe?'
" `A thousand bushelsB of wheat,' he replied.
"He told him, `Take your bill and make it eight hundred.'
8"The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
10"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also
be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?
What was jesus trying to say in the red words above?
heneni
PS: AK4 id love to discuss this hell theory and everybody is going to get saved theory with you in a one on one debate. I have to admit i have very different views of the reason jesus came to save us...and as you know i also believe in re-incarnation, and i believe earth is hell. Choose one of these topics and start a one-on-one debate if you like.
Heneni
Luke 161Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2So he called him in and asked him, `What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.'
3"The manager said to himself, `What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I'm not strong enough to dig, and I'm ashamed to beg-- 4I know what I'll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.'
5"So he called in each one of his master's debtors. He asked the first, `How much do you owe my master?'
6" `Eight hundred gallonsA of olive oil,' he replied.
"The manager told him, `Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred.'
7"Then he asked the second, `And how much do you owe?'
" `A thousand bushelsB of wheat,' he replied.
"He told him, `Take your bill and make it eight hundred.'
8"The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
10"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also
be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?
What was jesus trying to say in the red words above?
heneni
PS: AK4 id love to discuss this hell theory and everybody is going to get saved theory with you in a one on one debate. I have to admit i have very different views of the reason jesus came to save us...and as you know i also believe in re-incarnation, and i believe earth is hell. Choose one of these topics and start a one-on-one debate if you like.
Heneni