Panentheism or Pantheism?

[atanu]

Another question:
What if both God and the Universe could not exist without the other? Would this change the responses/thoughts?

best,
swampy

I think, on one hand, it would be advaita, by negation of both universe and God, or on the other hand, it could be unrelenting dvaita, without any chance of escape from the bondage of duality.

 

[swamplizard]

Hi atanu,

The latter sounds closer. Instructions without material is void.

best,
swampy

 

[atanu]

Hi atanu,

The latter sounds closer. Instructions without material is void.

best,
swampy

Hi Swampy

That is deep, IMO. So do you imply that that there is instruction suggests/indicates that the void is not void of Self?

Do I get you on this?

 

[swamplizard]

Hey atanu,

I think we are on the same page, words can become such barriers between thoughts. Think of God as the instructions and the Universe as the material. Though they are distinct, neither exists without the other.

best,
swampy

 

[idav]

Greetings good beings,

If one subscribes to God being within the universe and the universe being simultaneously within God, does this fall within one of the above? Or, is this a hybrid of the two?

best,
swampy

Either one can have a sort of material spiritual dualism. The main difference is whether god is within or is literally the universe. Either one can have a god that transcends through a spiritual nature. Though pantheism can be dualistic, pantheists are more likely to be naturalistic to say that there is only one type of materialism that has a dual nature.

 

[swamplizard]

Hi idav,

Thanks for your response, if I understand you, this scenario may fall into either classification, depending upon the individual. Is this a correct interpretation?

best,
swampy

 

[idav]

Hi idav,

Thanks for your response, if I understand you, this scenario may fall into either classification, depending upon the individual. Is this a correct interpretation?

best,
swampy

Yes, it really depends on what someone thinks of the nature of the material universe as well as how someone defines spirit and it's relation to the material world.

 

[Quintessence]

Thanks for the answers, folks. I asked in part because I tend to call myself a pantheist (among a few other things) but depending on how big that thing called the "universe" is and what someone's criteria for "existing" are, to others I might seem a panENtheist.

Bah, labels.

 

[1137]

Greetings good beings,

If one subscribes to God being within the universe and the universe being simultaneously within God, does this fall within one of the above? Or, is this a hybrid of the two?

best,
swampy

That is panentheism / panendeism.

 

[atanu]

Thanks for the answers, folks. I asked in part because I tend to call myself a pantheist (among a few other things) but depending on how big that thing called the "universe" is and what someone's criteria for "existing" are, to others I might seem a panENtheist.

Bah, labels.

Howsoever great the universe turns out to be, the knower of the vast universe will always be distinct from the known universe. If the distinction is erased, as in samadhi, then there is no universe -- which is the timeless truth.

 

[atanu]

Hey atanu,

I think we are on the same page, words can become such barriers between thoughts. Think of God as the instructions and the Universe as the material. Though they are distinct, neither exists without the other.

best,
swampy

But does anything exist independent of the above two? Or does the above two constitute unbreachable duality within and without time?

 

[swamplizard]

But does anything exist independent of the above two? Or does the above two constitute unbreachable duality within and without time?

The latter.

best,
swampy

 

[atanu]

The latter.

best,
swampy

Then what are we? The instructions or the material?

 

[swamplizard]

Then what are we? The instructions or the material?

Hi atanu,

One does not exist without the other, though they are distinct. Think of one's self as being distinct from the body, mind, etc, yet "possessing" these attributes which would be non-existent without the one. Does that help, or does it make any sense for that matter?

best,
swampy

 

[atanu]

Hi atanu,

One does not exist without the other, though they are distinct. Think of one's self as being distinct from the body, mind, etc, yet "possessing" these attributes which would be non-existent without the one. Does that help, or does it make any sense for that matter?

best,
swampy

This set of question answer began with the assumption that both God and the Universe could not exist without the other. Is this assumption provable?

If there are two eternal aspects: the instructions (god) and the universe, then how are both these known?

 

[swamplizard]

This set of question answer began with the assumption that both God and the Universe could not exist without the other. Is this assumption provable?

If there are two eternal aspects: the instructions (god) and the universe, then how are both these known?

Hi atanu,

The probing leads into existence and what that might entail. What constitutes existence without event? That is, is one real without effect? If I continue with this line of thought, I might conclude that a duality must exist in order for there to be ongoing effectualization. This duality is a dependent one, in essence making it singular, one within the other, distinct, yet inseparable.

best,
swampy

 

[atanu]

Hi atanu,

The probing leads into existence and what that might entail. What constitutes existence without event? That is, is one real without effect? If I continue with this line of thought, I might conclude that a duality must exist in order for there to be ongoing effectualization. This duality is a dependent one, in essence making it singular, one within the other, distinct, yet inseparable.

best,
swampy

Pardon me my lack of understanding this one. What exactly is knowing the existence of two categories?

 

[swamplizard]

Pardon me my lack of understanding this one. What exactly is knowing the existence of two categories?

Hi atanu,

Think of cause and effect being one event. Does this help at all?

best,
swampy

 

[atanu]

Hi atanu,

Think of cause and effect being one event. Does this help at all?

best,
swampy

Hi Swampy

This helps. Yet, the question remains who thinks that cause and effect are one event?

 

[swamplizard]

Hi Swampy

This helps. Yet, the question remains who thinks that cause and effect are one event?

Hey atanu,

True, cause and effect can be infinte events. Infinite measurement leads to one.

best,
swampy