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Panentheism or Pantheism?

Greetings good beings,

If one subscribes to God being within the universe and the universe being simultaneously within God, does this fall within one of the above? Or, is this a hybrid of the two?

best,
swampy
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
That is panentheism. But more specifically, panentheism sees God as the creator and the created. So the universe is not separate from God, it is a part and being a part, is within rather than away from. In addition, God is more than the universe.

In pantheism, God and Universe are synonymous and the terms interchangeable. Therefore one cannot be within the other as there is no 'other'.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
That is panentheism. But more specifically, panentheism sees God as the creator and the created. So the universe is not separate from God, it is a part and being a part, is within rather than away from. In addition, God is more than the universe.

In pantheism, God and Universe are synonymous and the terms interchangeable. Therefore one cannot be within the other as there is no 'other'.

Are they really dissimilar enough to bother differentiating?
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Are they really dissimilar enough to bother differentiating?

Absolutely. Panentheism acknowledges an intelligent creator being. This means that we can say, the universe comes from God. God is the source. God is much greater than the universe. We cannot say that the universe is God; it is only a part of God.

Whereas in Pantheism, God is not the source. God is nature and nature is God. That is nothing other than the universe.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Greetings good beings,

If one subscribes to God being within the universe and the universe being simultaneously within God, does this fall within one of the above? Or, is this a hybrid of the two?

best,
swampy

It is almost like air in all things and all things in air. So that is Panentheism IMO. The reality is meshed in the sensual universe yet is transcendental to the universe.

Apparently, Panentheism is duality or dvaita. But this is not correct. When one considers that the reality is meshed in the universe, then it is only a subset of panentheism and is equal to pantheism or visistaadvaita of hinduism. However, in this scheme of things, the immutabilty of the reality cannot be maintained.

Panentheism is dvaita in the sense that the transcendental reality and the discrete effects are different. However, scriptures exhort us to know the transcendental reality, which is defined as immutable, without a second, without consciousness of inner and outer, and as the Self. With such an exhortation, it is not possible to know the truth as a localised second being. One cannot know the Self as another. One cannot know that which is one without a second as a second.

So, at this level, advaita darshana comes in. In hinduism, these are three steps of Vishnu that encompass the whole. Some, however, do take these three steps as competing with each other.
 
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Twig pentagram

High Priest
Absolutely. Panentheism acknowledges an intelligent creator being. This means that we can say, the universe comes from God. God is the source. God is much greater than the universe. We cannot say that the universe is God; it is only a part of God.

Whereas in Pantheism, God is not the source. God is nature and nature is God. That is nothing other than the universe.
God is the source in pantheism too.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Whereas in Pantheism, God is not the source. God is nature and nature is God. That is nothing other than the universe.

What happens when your concept of "the universe" is a little larger than what most people usually mean by it? In other words, what happens when it takes into account otherworlds/multiverses?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
What happens when your concept of "the universe" is a little larger than what most people usually mean by it? In other words, what happens when it takes into account otherworlds/multiverses?

My opinion

Whatever is known directly or through any kind of report is the universe, including other worlds and multiverse.
 
What happens when your concept of "the universe" is a little larger than what most people usually mean by it? In other words, what happens when it takes into account otherworlds/multiverses?

Hi Quintessence,

In my terminology or use, if you will, the "universe" entails all that is or exists, so that multiverse is subordinate to the one all.

best,
swampy
 
Another question:
What if both God and the Universe could not exist without the other? Would this change the responses/thoughts?

best,
swampy
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
What happens when your concept of "the universe" is a little larger than what most people usually mean by it? In other words, what happens when it takes into account otherworlds/multiverses?

This would be a variation of pantheism. You may need to ask for an in-depth answer from a pantheist.
 

Twig pentagram

High Priest
What happens when your concept of "the universe" is a little larger than what most people usually mean by it? In other words, what happens when it takes into account otherworlds/multiverses?
As a pantheist I accept the universe as the scientific word for everything that exist. Therfore if it is a multiverse
it's still a part of the universe. I accept God, Gods, Goddess, etc as mystical words for everything that exist.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Another question:
What if both God and the Universe could not exist without the other? Would this change the responses/thoughts?

best,
swampy

Perhaps. But it would not necessarily be either pantheism or panentheism. Pantheism does not allow for this 'God AND Universe'. God and universe are not 2 things, they are just 2 titles for the same thing.

It might be supported by the panentheism definition, but I am not aware of a philosophy that purports this idea. Panentheism tends to support the idea that the universe cannot exist without God as it is a part of God and I suppose if you assume that any part of God is just as eternal as the whole of God then it is impossible for God to exist without that part....in the sense that it would no longer be the same God...
 
Perhaps. But it would not necessarily be either pantheism or panentheism. Pantheism does not allow for this 'God AND Universe'. God and universe are not 2 things, they are just 2 titles for the same thing.

It might be supported by the panentheism definition, but I am not aware of a philosophy that purports this idea. Panentheism tends to support the idea that the universe cannot exist without God as it is a part of God and I suppose if you assume that any part of God is just as eternal as the whole of God then it is impossible for God to exist without that part....in the sense that it would no longer be the same God...

Thanks Madhuri,

So might this be a hybrid view or "middle" of two?

best,
swampy
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Thanks Madhuri,

So might this be a hybrid view or "middle" of two?

best,
swampy

I do not think it has anything to do with pantheism. It might fit into panentheism or something completely different. I suppose what I mean is that I would need to know more detail of the philosophy or concept in order to better answer.
 
I do not think it has anything to do with pantheism. It might fit into panentheism or something completely different. I suppose what I mean is that I would need to know more detail of the philosophy or concept in order to better answer.

I think I agree, it doesn't seem to fit either position, yet it does have its similarities, it would appear.

best,
swampy
 
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