Pagan influence on Christianity

[shunyadragon]

There is nothing inherently wrong nor evil with pagan beliefs, but some beliefs and practices such as blood sacrifice are not moral nor ethical in the modern world. They are our Paleolithic and Neolithic spiritual heritage, but nonetheless these beliefs do not reflect Revelation from God as it spiritually evolved to a more mature universal view of God as taught in the Baha'i Faith.

The evidence of the evolution of religions is universal to all cultures of the world. First forms of Animism dominated, the immortality of the soul reflected in burial rites as early as the paleolithic, human lords and gods, polytheism and incarnate Gods evolved to Monotheism, and from the 'hands on' cataphatic to a more apophatic view of God. The animal and human sacrifice of the Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age, evolved to symbolic sacrifice.

God is not a chess player
with the white pieces
God is the sea
. . . and we are the fishes.

There is no rational nor logical reason to cling to imitations of Pagan beliefs of the past. The Pagan view of the necessity of some sort of blood sacrifice considered necessary for salvation or pleasing God most definitely needs to be given up.

 

[shunyadragon]

All religions have paganism in it unless they are completely made up this year 2017. Paganism just means native religions of the land. All religions have some paganisms because all religions are or have been influenced by the religions/culture of the original land that religion came from.

If there were no Paganism in Bahai, Christianity, Judaism, um, whatever, then what would your religions be founded on? If it's not from traditions (beliefs/practices handed down-which are native to the land/pagan), what is your religion based on?

You guys act as if paganism is a bad word.

The progressive Revelation is founded on Revelation from God and not ancient Pagan traditions and beliefs. The trend of the message in Revelation is reject polytheism, ancestor and worship of idols. It is the frailty of fallible human desires to cling to the ancient traditions and beliefs of what we describe as 'Paganism.' These beliefs involve animism, idol worship, and blood sacrifice.

It is time to give up the ghosts of ancient paradigms, and acknowledge that they represent our heritage.

In previous posts you have dismissed the problem of the importance of idols, statures, images and icons in Christian churches, but the reality is they are revered and believed sacred, and in many cases considered miraculous manifestations of miracles of God like weeping and bleeding images of Jesus, Mary and Saints. It is considered sacrilege to damage or deface these images. This is a distinct specific example of Pagan beliefs in Christianity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Paganism are native religions of a given land, nothing more.

The progressive Revelation is founded on Revelation from God and not ancient Pagan traditions and beliefs. The trend of the message in Revelation is reject polytheism, ancestor and worship of idols. It is the frailty of fallible human desires to cling to the ancient traditions and beliefs of what we describe as 'Paganism.' These beliefs involve animism, idol worship, and blood sacrifice.

Paganism does not mean idol worship, blood sacrifice, animism, and polytheism. That's like saying Abrahamic religions believe in one actual being/spirit deity (like casper), believe in animal sacrifice, and all of you like to belittle religions older than you (aka pagan religions) even though half of you colonized people rather than made peace to live on the same land.

All abrahamic religions do not believe the same thing.
All Pagan religions do not believe the same thing.
All pagan religions are so scattered across the globe that to say one believes this and another one doesn't is very (the statement itself) very ignorant.

It is time to give up the ghosts of ancient paradigms, and acknowledge that they represent our heritage.

Many Pagan religions value their heritage, so yes, it is important as a whole for both majority and minority religions.

In previous posts you have dismissed the problem of idols, statures, images and icons in Christian churches, but the reality is they are revered and believed sacred, and in many cases considered miraculous manifestations of miracles of God like weeping and bleeding images of Jesus, Mary and Saints. It is considered sacrilege to damage or deface these images. This is a distinct specific example of Pagan beliefs in Christianity.

Because these things do not define paganism as a whole. You're putting Roman teachings in with African, Australian, Native American, and Hawaiian among others together.

Another word for Pagan religions is Native religions.

I know people colonized others in history books I'm learning now, but to see people colonize in their words you're just reliving and reinventing history. I bet if all the abrahamics got together today, and believe god said kill the pagans, you and all the rest would slaughter us all.

Yes, I know it sounds horrible but that's the tone you're setting.

Not all Pagans believe in all the things you mentioned. You just have a bias against Roman Paganism, that's all.

 

[shunyadragon]

Paganism are native religions of a given land, nothing more.



Paganism does not mean idol worship, blood sacrifice, animism, and polytheism. That's like saying Abrahamic religions believe in one actual being/spirit deity (like casper), believe in animal sacrifice, and all of you like to belittle religions older than you (aka pagan religions) even though half of you colonized people rather than made peace to live on the same land.

All abrahamic religions do not believe the same thing.
All Pagan religions do not believe the same thing.
All pagan religions are so scattered across the globe that to say one believes this and another one doesn't is very (the statement itself) very ignorant.



Many Pagan religions value their heritage, so yes, it is important as a whole for both majority and minority religions.



Because these things do not define paganism as a whole. You're putting Roman teachings in with African, Australian, Native American, and Hawaiian among others together.

Another word for Pagan religions is Native religions.

I know people colonized others in history books I'm learning now, but to see people colonize in their words you're just reliving and reinventing history. I bet if all the abrahamics got together today, and believe god said kill the pagans, you and all the rest would slaughter us all.

Yes, I know it sounds horrible but that's the tone you're setting.

Not all Pagans believe in all the things you mentioned. You just have a bias against Roman Paganism, that's all.

Your response is clearly an over reaction to my post.

Please reread my post and respond appropriately. I did not make the statements, claims nor the negative generalizations concerning Pagan or Native religions. I presented aspects of 'some' Pagan beliefs that persist in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which are bogus imitations of Pagan beliefs. I also stated we need to acknowledge or Pagan, of Native religion, as a part of our spiritual heritage. Of course there are positive aspects of our Pagan heritage.

Looking froward to a more rational relevant response.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I tell everyone this. I have to read everyone's post when I reply. I cut it off in sections because I cannot digest (medical issues) more than one message in a second post. It's a communication issue. Nothing more.

If there were no Paganism in Bahai, Christianity, Judaism, um, whatever, then what would your religions be founded on? If it's not from traditions (beliefs/practices handed down-which are native to the land/pagan), what is your religion based on?

In previous posts you have dismissed the problem of the importance of idols, statures, images and icons in Christian churches, but the reality is they are revered and believed sacred, and in many cases considered miraculous manifestations of miracles of God like weeping and bleeding images of Jesus, Mary and Saints. It is considered sacrilege to damage or deface these images. This is a distinct specific example of Pagan beliefs in Christianity.

I have not dismissed it. Paganism does not have to do with these things. This is just Roman Paganism. I'm speaking of paganism as a whole which is just native religions of a given land. I has nothing to do with Mary, Statues, and all the other things misinterpreted from the Catholic faith. That, and out of all examples, why Catholic?

Because these things do not define paganism as a whole. You're putting Roman teachings in with African, Australian, Native American, and Hawaiian among others together.

Please reread my post and respond appropriately. I did not make the statements, claims nor the negative generalizations concerning Pagan or Native religions. I presented aspects of 'some' Pagan beliefs that persist in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which are bogus imitations of Pagan beliefs. I also stated we need to acknowledge or Pagan, of Native religion, as a part of our spiritual heritage. Of course there are positive aspects of our Pagan heritage.

It's still the same regardless if it's in general or if it's specific. Roman paganism is a part of Christianity. Without it, it would not exist. Also, post #37 doesn't mention all of what you are saying.

My original reply to the OP is that all religions have paganism in in, Bahai included. I have no clue why you'd focus on christianity since christianity isn't the only religion that has paganism in it. It's in all religions.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Your response is clearly an over reaction to my post.

Please reread my post and respond appropriately. I did not make the statements, claims nor the negative generalizations concerning Pagan or Native religions. I presented aspects of 'some' Pagan beliefs that persist in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which are bogus imitations of Pagan beliefs. I also stated we need to acknowledge or Pagan, of Native religion, as a part of our spiritual heritage. Of course there are positive aspects of our Pagan heritage.

Looking froward to a more rational relevant response.

Salam/Hello

I understand the The Bahai religion is based on pure Monotheism.
Which one of these 'Pagan' beliefs, present in Judaism, Christianity and Islam go against the teachings of the Most High? Which ones, if any in your opinion fly in the face of pure Monotheism and why.

Thanks

 

[Muslim-UK]

I just read a previous post highlighted by Carilta, where he quotes you (shunyadragon) as saying, "the importance of idols, statures, images and icons in Christian churches, but the reality is they are revered and believed sacred, and in many cases considered miraculous manifestations of miracles of God like weeping and bleeding images of Jesus, Mary and Saints. It is considered sacrilege to damage or deface these images. This is a distinct specific example of Pagan beliefs in Christianity."

Ok that answers my question in part. I'm somewhat surprised you didn't add worshipping a mortal man amongst the biggest misgivings in Christianity, as this is pure idolatry and unforgivable. Looking forward to reading about your issues with Judaism and Islam concerning Paganism.

 

[David T]

Maybe. More time getting out and

This thread is for the Christian Trinitarians.

Elsewhere I wrote,

I think if the Messiah the Jews were expecting was going to be God Himself, then He would have told his chosen people. This whole notion of worshippin g men as Gods comes from Greco-Roman World. They simply hijacked the message of Jesus pbuh, taking the title 'son of God' and replaced their own 'Sun of God' with it. We know this because amongst other things, Emperor Constantine in 321 A.D. decreed “the day of the sun” as a day of rest. He took the Jewish Sabbath and replaced it with Sun 'worship' Day.

We are to believe Palestine was under a hostile invading force that crushed any dissent, and Jesus pbuh was fine with that, telling his followers,

Mark 12:17 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." Did Jesus pbuh say that or is it a later insertion?

Either way, sorry but it makes no sense worshipping a man who prayed to God, asked God why he had been forsaken, and told the people he was going to his God and their God. As page after page in this thread has shown, higher Christology is really only found in John and even there you find passages showing Jesus pbuh was far from divine. If you sincerely love the God of Abraham pbuh, then you should follow the Torah as Jesus pbuh commanded. Or keep studying and seek out who the Prophet to come after him was. Recall Jesus pbuh said,

12 “I have yet many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now.13 But when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own authority. But He will speak whatever He hears, and He will tell you things that are to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will receive from Me and will declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is Mine. Therefore I said that He will take what is Mine and will declare it to you. John 16:12-15

The truth does not start with the text and its a big fallacy of religion that tends to reinforce itself. Ypu are reinforcing a "normal" notion that the topic god starts with reading, thats flat earth wrong as the day is long.

 

[Muslim-UK]

The truth does not start with the text and its a big fallacy of religion that tends to reinforce itself. Ypu are reinforcing a "normal" notion that the topic god starts with reading,

I would agree people are able to observe their natural environment and conclude there must be a Creator. The books we hold to come from that Creator and are meant to be used as a guidance for man kind. Well certainly in the case of the Qur'an, but as you disagree perhaps you can expand on what you mean, and tell us where truth comes from?

thats flat earth wrong as the day is long.

Not all religions teach a young flat Earth.

 

[David T]

I would agree people are able to observe their natural environment and conclude there must be a Creator. The books we hold to come from that Creator and are meant to be used as a guidance for man kind. Well certainly in the case of the Qur'an, but as you disagree perhaps you can expand on what you mean, and tell us where truth comes from?

Not all religions teach a young flat Earth.

I am a creator, and in religion god created me, Thats a circular notion that isnt addressed in religion. I could say i am an evolutionist, with no accounting for evolution in my own percptions a kind of faux objectivity which is always presented as fact. Again a circular notion often times arguing with a circular notion. Mohammed as i have heard say said that "joseph and his wife recieved 50% of all beauty from god and everyone else the remainder. That story may be ivery mportant and certainly he saw this, but in ways his folkowers dont understand, exactly like the story. That story is in play.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I am a creator, and in religion god created me, Thats a circular notion that isnt addressed in religion. I could say i am an evolutionist, with no accounting for evolution in my own percptions a kind of faux objectivity which is always presented as fact. Again a circular notion often times arguing with a circular notion. Mohammed as i have heard say said that "joseph and his wife recieved 50% of all beauty from god and everyone else the remainder. That story may be ivery mportant and certainly he saw this, but in ways his folkowers dont understand, exactly like the story. That story is in play.

If I've understood you correctly, If you are the creator, please do create a human today or tomorrow with 3 eyes or a spare set behind the head.

For you to make any sense in a Court, you want your refutation to be considered whilst asking the Judge to dismiss the original 'Witness' testimony, the Qur'an. But no fair minded Judge would do that, so it's for you to attempt to refute the evidence presented in the Qur'an.

 

[Augustus]

I'm talking about the Greco-Roman perspective and what they were accustomed to, particularly deifying their leaders.

The Greeks didn't deify their leaders, only the Romans from the period of Julius/Augustus Caesar.

Christianity emerged out of Judaism and therefore all of the early Jewish Christians (Jews who had accepted Jesus(as) as their Messiah) were monotheistic. However, they lived in the context of other civilisations such as the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians and Persians, all of whom had strong cultures of their own. As Christians tried to politically distance themselves from the Jews, and also tried to gain acceptance in Europe, their theology sometimes became merged with local culture to the detriment of Christianity.

A key example of this was the interaction of Christianity in the Roman Empire with traditional Roman beliefs. The Romans had been persecuting Christians and despised the Jews whom they had defeated in Jerusalem around 70 CE. They wanted all races in their empire to pay tribute to the Emperor and the Roman gods and goddesses. Over three centuries, gradually Christians began to associate Jesus(as) with the Roman god Sol Invictus by depicting Jesus(as) as having a solar halo around his head just like Sol Invictus, and by adopting the holy day of their god, December 25th, as the key date for Christianity, erroneously celebrated as the birthday of Jesus(as).

In the early 17th century, Christianity had to debate the place of the sun in the universe with scientists such as Galileo. The Orthodox view of the Church at that time was that man was central and therefore the earth must be at the centre of the universe and the universe must revolve around the earth. Galileo was condemned for his ‘scientific’ beliefs that were seen to be at odds with Orthodox religious beliefs. Modern science has proven the scientific view to be correct.

The long-term impact of Christian use of a Solar calendar is that its festivals are associated more with the seasons when they occur than the events they signify. Also, the legacy of the association with Sol Invictus is that the birthday of Jesus(as) is celebrated on December 25th, which used to be the winter solstice 2000 years ago. It is important to note that Jesus(as) himself would not have recognised some of the innovations that later became part of Christianity, as he was a practising Jew.

Early Church Christology was not influenced by paganism.

Most of the stuff above is pseudo-history from the last 100 years.

Constantine was a Christian who in 321 A.D. decreed,

"Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades, rest on the venerable day of the sun..." Not Day of the Son.

Why would he associate Christianity with Sun worship Day?

This would be like me asking why Muslims have Friday prayers on a day named after the pagan god Frige (i.e. obviously fallacious).

 

[Muslim-UK]

The Greeks didn't deify their leaders, only the Romans from the period of Julius/Augustus Caesar.

Didn't the ancient Greek leader, Antiochus IV Epiphanes claim to be incarnate and demand worship as such?

Early Church Christology was not influenced by paganism.
Most of the stuff above is pseudo-history from the last 100 years.

That's not what the evidence shows. For example, if we look at higher Christology as found in the anonymous Gospel attributed to John, we have to ask, was the person who wrote it a Jew? Where did the idea of the prologue come from?

This would be like me asking why Muslims have Friday prayers on a day named after the pagan god Frige (i.e. obviously fallacious).

Muslims aren't Jews, Allah swt made Friday our day of worship to distinguish us from the Jews and Christians. My point stands, why were the Jewish followers of Jesus pbuh told to change the day of the Sabbath to 'Sun'day? Did Jesus pbuh command it in the NT, If so as a Christian can you show me where?

 

[Riders]

I'm really glad you got this thread up here.Whenever it try to post on this in the past it goes no where Christians just say so what that proves nothing then laugh at me. But this looks good I'm just beginning to read it now

 

[Augustus]

Didn't the ancient Greek leader, Antiochus IV Epiphanes claim to be incarnate and demand worship as such?

Actually you are right on this regarding the broader Greek tradition, especially Egypt and the likes.

Was thinking too narrowly.

That's not what the evidence shows. For example, if we look at higher Christology as found in the anonymous Gospel attributed to John, we have to ask, was the person who wrote it a Jew? Where did the idea of the prologue come from?

Start with Philo if you want to see the relation of such thoughts to Judaism.

For example:

Philo's Logos as Divine Mediator Philo of Alexandria's Logos | Old Testament Pseudepigrapha - School of Divinity, University of St Andrews

Greek philosophy is more relevant than polytheism. It is unsurprising that a Greek text like the NT reflects contemporary Greek thought (as it is unsurprising that the Quran reflects 6th/7th C Arabic/Syriac thought)

Muslims aren't Jews, Allah swt made Friday our day of worship to distinguish us from the Jews and Christians. My point stands, why were the Jewish followers of Jesus pbuh told to change the day of the Sabbath to 'Sun'day? Did Jesus pbuh command it in the NT, If so as a Christian can you show me where?

The Quran only refers to a 'Day of Congregation' does it not?, Would I be correct in thinking the modern Arabic Jumu'a (Friday) takes it's name from that. The Arabic calendar postdates Islam.

The day is thus unspecified, only Arabic tradition leads us to accept is as Friday. Maybe they changed their minds about it, like with the Qibla.

The Christians see Sunday as being the day the apostles used to meet, a tradition, just like yours. One that significantly predates Constantine.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Paganism are native religions of a given land, nothing more.

Your statement here is why I disagree so much with the continued use of the archaic term "pagan" in conjunction with Paganism. It makes it way too broad, to where the term is practically useless. What's more, it defines Paganism with what it isn't, rather than what it is. If you're meaning non-christianity, just say non-christian. But historically paganus was not applied to anyone outside of Europe by the Romans, and shouldn't just be applied to mean "anyone and everything non-christian." Paganism today is more specific than that.

Native religions of a given land bear the term "indigenous faith". "Native" itself is subject to great change; anything after a couple generations is technically native. Having been born and raised in America, I am thus technically a Native American; it is my homeland of origin. Likewise, American Asatru has been a thing since the 70's. Practically, it is now a native religion of America, having been started and cultivated here.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Your statement here is why I disagree so much with the continued use of the archaic term "pagan" in conjunction with Paganism. It makes it way too broad, to where the term is practically useless. What's more, it defines Paganism with what it isn't, rather than what it is. If you're meaning non-christianity, just say non-christian. But historically paganus was not applied to anyone outside of Europe by the Romans, and shouldn't just be applied to mean "anyone and everything non-christian." Paganism today is more specific than that.

Native religions of a given land bear the term "indigenous faith". "Native" itself is subject to great change; anything after a couple generations is technically native. Having been born and raised in America, I am thus technically a Native American; it is my homeland of origin. Likewise, American Asatru has been a thing since the 70's. Practically, it is now a native religion of America, having been started and cultivated here.

Paganism (upper case p because it's in the beginning of the sentence.) paganism are indigenous faith native to the land it originated. Many christians are referring to paganism not Paganism as individual religions with their own practices with most Christians probably have no clue what they practice.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Start with Philo if you want to see the relation of such thoughts to Judaism.

For example:

Philo's Logos as Divine Mediator Philo of Alexandria's Logos | Old Testament Pseudepigrapha - School of Divinity, University of St Andrews

Greek philosophy is more relevant than polytheism. It is unsurprising that a Greek text like the NT reflects contemporary Greek thought (as it is unsurprising that the Quran reflects 6th/7th C Arabic/Syriac thought)

Jewish philosopher Philo was influenced by Plato, and the later Greek writer(s) of John's Gospel, took the same idea and made Jesus pbuh the Logos. John's creation account is said to mirror the story in Genesis, but there is no God besides God, no Word made incarnate. You can see how outside philosophy contributed to turning a Prophet of God into God Himself.

Looking further, if we examine Sun worship and Mithraism/Sol Invictus we can see how many Pagan beliefs crossed over into Christianity.

The Quran only refers to a 'Day of Congregation' does it not?, Would I be correct in thinking the modern Arabic Jumu'a (Friday) takes it's name from that. The Arabic calendar postdates Islam.

The day is thus unspecified, only Arabic tradition leads us to accept is as Friday. Maybe they changed their minds about it, like with the Qibla.

Who is the Qur'an talking to when it mentions the day of congregation? The Prophet pbuh of course, and what did the Prophet pbuh say regarding this day? At least 63 Hadiths, and that's just in Imam Buhkari's blessed collection:

13. Friday Prayer from Sahih Al-Bukhari translated by M. Muhsin Khan - Hadith (Hadis) Books

The Christians see Sunday as being the day the apostles used to meet, a tradition, just like yours. One that significantly predates Constantine.

What does Jews meeting on the first day of the week, Sunday have to do with changing the day of the Sabbath? Show me where Jesus pbuh as a Prophet of God allowed it to change, or GOD Himself commanded it, because He was very clear:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No believing Jew in their right mind would drop the Sabbath in favour of a Pagan celebration of Sun worship including Jesus pbuh:

Mathew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Note that Jesus was speaking to his disciples.

 

[Riders]

Paganism (upper case p because it's in the beginning of the sentence.) paganism are indigenous faith native to the land it originated. Many christians are referring to paganism not Paganism as individual religions with their own practices with most Christians probably have no clue what they practice.

That's not true. The Wicca religion was not a native religion like the Native Americans it's new. Peep in my UU church which is Pagan claim it as Pagan.

I've been taught at church there are 2 different definitions or 3 definitions of Pagan. The actual original definition of Pagan is people from the country.

Also some believe if you believe in multiple Gods you ate earth based or Pagan so that would include Hinduism.

Some people define Paganism as any religion at all outside of the Christian Judeo Muslim belief system.

 

[shunyadragon]

I tell everyone this. I have to read everyone's post when I reply. I cut it off in sections because I cannot digest (medical issues) more than one message in a second post. It's a communication issue. Nothing more.




I have not dismissed it. Paganism does not have to do with these things. This is just Roman Paganism. I'm speaking of paganism as a whole which is just native religions of a given land. I has nothing to do with Mary, Statues, and all the other things misinterpreted from the Catholic faith. That, and out of all examples, why Catholic?

First it is the largest and oldest, and most up front with pagan attributes. Other churches also use icons like the Orthodox Churches.

It's still the same regardless if it's in general or if it's specific. Roman paganism is a part of Christianity. Without it, it would not exist. Also, post #37 doesn't mention all of what you are saying.

My original reply to the OP is that all religions have paganism in in, Bahai included. I have no clue why you'd focus on christianity since christianity isn't the only religion that has paganism in it. It's in all religions.

If you include the Baha'i Faith has pagan beliefs you will have document by references, and unfounded assertions.

There are other Pagan influences in Judaism, Christianity and Islam that Roman. In fact the primary Pagan influences are Babylonian, Ugarit, and Canaanite pagan beliefs, including the tradition of blood sacrifice.