Overcoming same-sex attraction

[Agnostic75]

Edit: Deletion of duplicate post.

 

[Father Heathen]

Gays would probably have an easier time if they stopped imposing themselves on established culture.

How, by merely existing, do they "impose" themselves on "established culture"? At one time slavery and a woman's inability to vote were "established culture". There is a reason we don't live in the dark ages anymore, because society advances, evolves, and progresses. The more we stand true for the values of freedom, rights and equality, the better we are for it.

The fact is they are defined by having sex and most people see this as an offensive threat.

A threat to what?

 

[nekoboy]

I did not say or imply that everything that animals do is ok. I was questioning why God would force animals to do something that he does not want humans to do. Why would God force almost all bonobo monkeys to be bi-sexual?

He doesn't force them to. They do it, and since they have no moral law, they do it. What makes humans superior to the beasts is the fact that we have morals and virtues. Also, the fact that we are spiritual children of God.

Some higher animals are self-aware, and have complex emotions, including loyalty, and altruism.

Non sequitor. Having "complex emotions" is not good enough, especially if they are not as acute as a human beings. It's all instinct. And any of those "virtues" doesn't stop them from doing something truly disgusting in a heartbeat. At least on the human standard of morality.

In your opinion, is God able to provide additional evidence that would cause more people to love and accept him?

That reminds me of a story in the book of mormon where Nephi asks his brothers why they were bickering. They replied that they were trying to determine the meaning of Lehi's dream. Nephi then asks them if they asked God about it. They said no, because God never told them. Isn't like expecting help from your teacher even though you never asked her for it?

If you want evidence, you can look at the beauty and order in creation. If that is not good enough, try praying and looking for the truth. Try reading the Book of Mormon.

 

[Agnostic75]

He doesn't force [some animals to practice homosexuallity.]

Are you implying that animals have free will? If so, where is your scientific proof?

 

[Agnostic75]

In your opinion, is God able to provide additional evidence that would cause more people to love and accept him?

That reminds me of a story in the Book of Mormon where Nephi asks his brothers why they were bickering. They replied that they were trying to determine the meaning of Lehi's dream. Nephi then asks them if they asked God about it. They said no, because God never told them. Isn't like expecting help from your teacher even though you never asked her for it?

How does any of that answer my question? If you don't mind, please start out with a simple "yes" or "no," and then explain what you mean more clearly. Evasiveness will not do. If your answer does not include a "yes" or "no," you do not have valid arguments. If a God exists, surely the correct answer is "yes," in which case God will punish some people for refusing to accept additional evidence if they were aware of it.

As far as reasding the Book of Mormon is concerned, many former Mormons know it very well, and left the church. Anyway, if a God inspired the original Bible, what evidence do you have that he preserved most or all of it, including the parts about homosexuality?

 

[waitasec]

That depends on the method. Are you using cruel means to do it, or are you sincerely doing your best to not do any damage?

the entire program is cruel...


Dr. Spitzer's study also appears to suffer from some of the same methodological flaws as the published studies discussed above. For example, only a minority of the participants (about 40%) were exclusively attracted to partners of the same sex before they attempted to change. As noted above, including bisexuals in studies evaluating the outcomes of conversion therapies tends to inflate the proportion of "successes."

Facts About Changing Sexual Orientation


shame shame shame on those who judge others based on an an unfounded opinion

i see a sense of a robotic obligation as it so easily dismisses the very people they are in contact with

shame shame shame
:tsk:

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why? Isn't all psychological therapy at some point rooted in cultural norms? Shouldn't the stick of measure be "does it help the patient lead a happier life?" instead of "I think there's something wrong with this and it shouldn't be practiced!"

Actually someone saying "There is something very wrong with this" is what ended the Stanford Prison Experiment. Saying there is something wrong with a practice is often how improvements in humane treatments and care for those in psychiatric care is because someone says there is something wrong. It's a check to that which may other wise be very damaging and becoming widespread without any challenge or opposition.
But, yes, the goal of therapy should be is the treatment improving the quality of life for a patient. But long term studies have consistently shown reparative therapies have a higher failure rate than many of Freud's theories.

That depends on the method. Are you using cruel means to do it, or are you sincerely doing your best to not do any damage? There is a difference between doing something out of hate, and doing something out of sincere love.

It doesn't matter the method. Long term studies have shown there is a risk for a patient becoming depressed and suicidal, or even more-so than when the patient initially entered therapy.
But it doesn't matter the method, they all work on the same basic psychological elements that occur to most people just because they are homo sapiens. Many studies that support such "therapy" are often short-term, which is to no surprise at all that they mostly all have a trend of showing a very high self-rating in over all happiness. But this is because they are short term studies, and our brains are wired for us to convince ourselves that a newly achieved life-style or status is for the better. And the more effort we put into it, the more we are going to tell ourselves we like it. When you add what is usually a supportive and encouraging support system, it would be of no surprise if someone observing the group were to even be tempted to feel happy for the group because it will seem like they are doing wonderfully.
But when months turn to years, and what we do know for sure are natural biological impulses begin to tear at the soul, the repression of ourselves (ESPECIALLY our sexual selves) is known for causing a slew full of social problems, including the Catholic sex scandal. Knowing you are living a life that you are not at all attracted to, and one that you not only feel to be wrong but you know is wrong sets the stage for a range of disorders that often begin as depressive and/or anxiety, and build from there based on individual biology and social environments. In my opinion, any treatment that may result in suicidal thoughts or attempts, including most psychotropic drugs, should not be considered an ideal treatment and should be replaced by more effective therapies. In the case of homosexuality, the only therapy that should ever be needed is to help the patient find and come to terms with themselves, and to be a support system if needed.
What is sickening though is how it is proven that homosexuality is not damaging to kids or society, yet people try to change there behavior and try to enforce what they think should be the ideal. Yet what is not attempted to be fixed, or at least not nearly with such vigor, and what is truly very damaging to individuals and society, is the Western obsession with a beauty ideal that is so unreal it often has to be photoshopped to be obtained. Not only is it damaging, it is so destructive that it practically created anorexia nervosa, as it is very rare to find outside of Western culture.
Does anyone else see a very clear bias that goes against what Jesus taught about when it comes to choosing what social issues to address? Afterall people would hate to think of the idea of a sex offender being offered therapy to deal with their behaviors, and of course whenever someone ogles an edited image of a model we don't consider them harmful to the moral fabrics of society, and we don't consider them hell-bound perverts that want to convert your kids.

 

[nekoboy]

I suppress my own tendencies toward vorarephilia, and yet I am quite happy with the decision.

Also, I see too many examples of the pagan philosophy here, as described in Mainspring of human progress. Basically, the pagan philosophy is that man has no free will, he is a slave to his environment and instincts. This isn't true, and progress has come from realizing that man has been granted free will by God, over the environment and HIS BIOLOGICAL instincts. Man has had plenty of instincts to kill, commit rape, and act like a complete savage. And yet suppressing those BIOLOGICAL instincts has done more good than harm. Appeal to inherent nature is a logical fallacy.

 

[Agnostic75]

Edit: Deletion of duplicate post.

 

[nekoboy]

Here's a novel idea: If gays can't change, then there is no reason to believe that any other sexual deviant, like a pedophile, zoophile, or a necrophile can change. Instead of wasting time trying to rehabilitate them, how about we cut off their ****? Don't give them a chance! They will eventually commit rape!

 

[Agnostic75]

[Reparative therapy] doesn't work for everyone, but what truly matters is if they do their best.

For some people, continuing to engage in homosexual behavior is the best that they can do without needlessly compromising their physical and mental health by trying to become celibate for life.

In your opinion, is God able to provide additional evidence that would cause more people to love and accept him?

That reminds me of a story in the Book of Mormon where Nephi asks his brothers why they were bickering. They replied that they were trying to determine the meaning of Lehi's dream. Nephi then asks them if they asked God about it. They said no, because God never told them. Isn't like expecting help from your teacher even though you never asked her for it?

How does any of that answer my question? If you don't mind, please start out with a simple "yes" or "no," and then explain what you mean more clearly. Evasiveness will not do. If your answer does not include a "yes" or "no," you do not have valid arguments. If a God exists, surely the correct answer is "yes," in which case God will punish some people for refusing to accept additional evidence that they would have accepted if they had been aware of it. It would be immoral for a God to punish any man who would have accepted additional evidence if he had been aware of it.

As far as reasding the Book of Mormon is concerned, many former Mormons know it very well, and left the church. Anyway, if a God inspired the original Bible, what evidence do you have that he preserved most or all of it, including the parts about homosexuality?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Basically, the pagan philosophy is that man has no free will, he is a slave to his environment and instincts. This isn't true, and progress has come from realizing that man has been granted free will by God, over the environment and HIS BIOLOGICAL instincts. Man has had plenty of instincts to kill, commit rape, and act like a complete savage. And yet suppressing those BIOLOGICAL instincts has done more good than harm. Appeal to inherent nature is a logical fallacy.

The effects of biology and environment on human behavior and cognition is a studied and documented phenomena. There are many, many text books and science journals that cover this. We may, and probably do have some will that is ours to exercise, but I certainly wouldn't call it "free-will." The notion that we have a unhindered freedom of will to become who want to simply does not exist. One of the easiest ways to demonstrate this, is that since you belong to the Western culture you most likely have an analytic mind-set of interpretations and will focus on the object of focus, and your self identity will probably revolve around things that pertain to you. However someone from an Oriental culture will most likely have a heuristic mind-set of interpretations and will focus on the overall picture, and there self-identity tends to revolve around group membership.
But there are an endless supply of studies that show true free-will does not exist, but rather we are indeed the product of our environment and genes.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Here's a novel idea: If gays can't change, then there is no reason to believe that any other sexual deviant, like a pedophile, zoophile, or a necrophile can change. Instead of wasting time trying to rehabilitate them, how about we cut off their ****? Don't give them a chance! They will eventually commit rape!

Personally I don't believe they can change. However pedophilia is often psychologically damaging and a pedophile should be worked with to help them over come there urges as those urges to usually cause a great deal of harm. And you do not remove their penis because for one it's very inhumane, and for two it is to disregard the fact that women to can commit sex-crimes. However many male sex offenders undergo chemical castration (either by choice or legal requirement) to reduce sexual urges. It doesn't completely stave of sexual urges, but it does diminish them and it does make obtaining and maintaining an erection difficult. The long term effects of this approach I am not sure of, as it isn't something I have researched.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Here's a novel idea: If gays can't change, then there is no reason to believe that any other sexual deviant, like a pedophile, zoophile, or a necrophile can change. Instead of wasting time trying to rehabilitate them, how about we cut off their ****? Don't give them a chance! They will eventually commit rape!

...wow that was a lot of insults and fallacies thrown in a blender. Good job. :clap

 

[nekoboy]

Guys, if you disagree with me, I will do my best to respect your views. If you decide to support gay marriage, that is your decision. You will not have my support, however.

@ Gjallarhorn: Look bud, It was a sarcastic way to show that the argument "I was born that way" is not a very good argument, especially when it concerns actions and tendencies not accepted by society.

 

[Father Heathen]

Here's a novel idea: If gays can't change, then there is no reason to believe that any other sexual deviant, like a pedophile, zoophile, or a necrophile can change. Instead of wasting time trying to rehabilitate them, how about we cut off their ****? Don't give them a chance! They will eventually commit rape!

Homosexuality isn't even remotely comparable to those. For one, it doesn't victimize people.

 

[nekoboy]

Homosexuality isn't even remotely comparable to those. For one, it doesn't victimize people.

It isn't, but like homosexuals; zoophiles, necrophiles, and the like have those tendencies, and it is beyond their control. Usually.

And besides, even though homosexuals (usually) don't hurt others, they are certainly hurting themselves. Did you know that smoking is physically, mentally, and spiritually healthier than homosexuality?
AIDS 50 Times Higher In Gay/Bi-Men Than Other Groups | RH Reality Check
High Infection Rates Continue Among Gay Men
AIDS Rate 50 Times Higher in Homosexual Men: Center for Disease Control | LifeSiteNews.com

 

[Agnostic75]

[Reparative therapy] doesn't work for everyone, but what truly matters is if they do their best.

For some people, continuing to engage in homosexual behavior is the best that they can do without needlessly compromising their physical and mental health by trying to become celibate for life.

In your opinion, is God able to provide additional evidence that would cause more people to love and accept him?

That reminds me of a story in the Book of Mormon where Nephi asks his brothers why they were bickering. They replied that they were trying to determine the meaning of Lehi's dream. Nephi then asks them if they asked God about it. They said no, because God never told them. Isn't like expecting help from your teacher even though you never asked her for it?

How does any of that answer my question? If you don't mind, please start out with a simple "yes" or "no," and then explain what you mean more clearly. Evasiveness will not do. If your answer does not include a "yes" or "no," you do not have valid arguments. If a God exists, surely the correct answer is "yes," in which case God will punish some people for refusing to accept additional evidence that they would have accepted if they had been aware of it. It would be immoral for a God to punish any man who would have accepted additional evidence if he had been aware of it.

As far as reasding the Book of Mormon is concerned, many former Mormons know it very well, and left the church. Anyway, if a God inspired the original Bible, what evidence do you have that he preserved most or all of it, including the parts about homosexuality?

 

[nekoboy]

How does any of that answer my question? If you don't mind, please start out with a simple "yes" or "no," and then explain what you mean more clearly. Evasiveness will not do. If your answer does not include a "yes" or "no," you do not have valid arguments. If a God exists, surely the correct answer is "yes," in which case God will punish some people for refusing to accept additional evidence that they would have accepted if they had been aware of it. It would be immoral for a God to punish any man who would have accepted additional evidence if he had been aware of it.

Since you keep spamming the thread, here is my explanation:
Alma 30 

 

[Agnostic75]

Here's a novel idea: If gays can't change, then there is no reason to believe that any other sexual deviant, like a pedophile, zoophile, or a necrophile can change.......

Are you proposing that homosexuality is as undesirable at zoophilia, and necrophilia?

Some openly gay Congressmen are gay. If they were openly zoophiles, or necrophiles, they would not have had any chance of being elected.

Are you not aware that trying to practice celibacy for life would cause many homosexuals great physicial and emotional distress, and that reparative therapy works best by far for religiously motivated people?