OT ritual by Jesus and his disciples is missing in the New Testament prior to crucifixion. Why?

[omega2xx]

But another substitute for sins is a flour offering. No blood. Does that prefigure the substitutionary atonement of the Pillsbury Doughboy?

You don't even understand your own rituals. The grain offering was not for sin. It was basically for fellowship with God.That is shown by the fact the priest we required to eat their per of it However if you want to find a connection, the grain had to be crushed to make the different type of cakes. Now read Isa 53:10. If that is over your head, let me know and I will explain it to you.

Does your God teach you that making fun of someone's religion is acceptable? Mine doesn't.

 

[rosends]

You don't even understand your own rituals. The grain offering was not for sin. It was basically for fellowship with God.That is shown by the fact the priest we required to eat their per of it However if you want to find a connection, the grain had to be crushed to make the different type of cakes. Now read Isa 53:10. If that is over your head, let me know and I will explain it to you.

Does your God teach you that making fun of someone's religion is acceptable? Mine doesn't.

You don't even know which sacrifice I'm talking about, do you. The flour, not grain offering. Used for atonement for sin and no one eats it. No blood. Atonement. When you get your bearings, come back.

 

[omega2xx]

Ok, and where do the Passover offering, Tithe offering and First-born offering fit within these 5 categories?

They are not part of the Levitical offering system. The Passover is not an offering for sin and neither is the tithe.

So not all sins deserve death but everyone who sins will die - ie. deserve death.

Go back and read what I said, very slowly

Then it shouldn't be too hard to figure out that intended verse with a quick internet search.

If you need to go ahead and let me know what the say.

Can you explain why these two statements are not contradictory.

Since they are not contradictory, I can't. Can you explain how they are?

Also, as I've provided a list of all the verses that discuss when the sin offering applies, I'd appreciate it if you can point me towards the correct verse that applies to murder (assuming your statement that there is an offering for murder)

Since the murders was going to be executed, it may not apply. However, imo, no penalty for sin was mandatory. The offended party could always show mercy. If the murderer was not executed, he should offer a sin offering to make atonement for his sin.

In your list of five categories of offerings (and of course in the eight categories I've provided) , the majority of them are not indicated for sin or atonement. How does this figure into your concept of them pointing towards substitionary atonement.

First, it is no my list, it is God's. Second you are trying to make other offerings part of the Levitical system, that is not right. Only the 5 in the first few chapters of Leviticus are the Levitical offerings. 3 of them are for atonement, that is the majority.

Yes, I think that's why we're both here.

Agreed.

 

[omega2xx]

You don't even know which sacrifice I'm talking about, do you. The flour, not grain offering. Used for atonement for sin and no one eats it. No blood. Atonement. When you get your bearings, come back.

I do know which offering you are talking about and the grain offering was not for atonement and the priest who offered it did eat some of it(Lev 6:14-16).

Also, part of the grain offering was presented to God as a memorial offering. When Jesus broke the bread and offered the wine, He said,"Do this in remembrance of Me."

 

[rosends]

I do know which offering you are talking about and the grain offering was not for atonement and the priest who offered it did eat some of it(Lev 6:14-16).

Also, part of the grain offering was presented to God as a memorial offering. When Jesus broke the bread and offered the wine, He said,"Do this in remembrance of Me."

Then no, you don't know. Out of pure pity I will provide the relevant verses: (Lev 5:11-13)

11But if he cannot afford two turtle doves or two young doves, then he shall bring as his sacrifice for his sin one tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He shall not put oil over it, nor shall he place frankincense upon it, for it is a sin offering.

12He shall bring it to the kohen, and the kohen shall scoop out a fistful as its reminder, and cause it to [go up in] smoke on the altar, upon the fires of the Lord. It is a sin offering.

13Thus the kohen shall make atonement for his sin that he committed in any one of these [cases], and he shall be forgiven. And it shall belong to the kohen like the meal offering.

 

[omega2xx]

Then no, you don't know. Out of pure pity I will provide the relevant verses: (Lev 5:11-13)

11But if he cannot afford two turtle doves or two young doves, then he shall bring as his sacrifice for his sin one tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He shall not put oil over it, nor shall he place frankincense upon it, for it is a sin offering.

12He shall bring it to the kohen, and the kohen shall scoop out a fistful as its reminder, and cause it to [go up in] smoke on the altar, upon the fires of the Lord. It is a sin offering.

13Thus the kohen shall make atonement for his sin that he committed in any one of these [cases], and he shall be forgiven. And it shall belong to the kohen like the meal offering.

You mentioned flour. The only offering using flour is the grain offering.

 

[rosends]

You mentioned flour. The only offering using flour is the grain offering.

Actually, there are 17 different grain based offerings which use flour. Only 2 have anything to do with sin. There is also a first-grain offering that is accompanied by the flour, but is an offering of grain. So which did you mean?

 

[Tumah]

They are not part of the Levitical offering system. The Passover is not an offering for sin and neither is the tithe.

I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you trying to say that because these three sacrifices are not mentioned in the Book of Leviticus they are somehow not included in the categories of sacrifices offered by Jews in Temple times?

Go back and read what I said, very slowly

Yeah I did.

the soul that sins will die. ... Everyone sins from time to time.​

If you need to go ahead and let me know what the say.

Sure.
Your question:

What if the thief doe snot do any of those things but sells the animal and keeps the money?​

My response:

When a man steals an ox or a sheep and slaughters it or sells it; five cattle shall he pay in place of the ox and four sheep for the sheep.
- Ex. 21:37​

Since they are not contradictory, I can't. Can you explain how they are?

Sure.

Murder is a sin. The sin offering applies.

The penalty for murders is death. An offering will not atone for that sin.​

In the earlier statement you say there is a sin offering for murder and in the latter you say there isn't.

Since the murders was going to be executed, it may not apply. However, imo, no penalty for sin was mandatory. The offended party could always show mercy. If the murderer was not executed, he should offer a sin offering to make atonement for his sin.

The prosecuting party is dead. He is not capable of forgiving the murderer.

That being said, can you point to a verse that allows the judge to be lenient when the prosecuting party forgives the defendant?

And again, can you point to the verse that prescribes a sin offering for murder.

First, it is no my list, it is God's. Second you are trying to make other offerings part of the Levitical system, that is not right.

I think the problem is that for some reason you seem the Book of Leviticus as a separate Book from the rest of the Pentateuch. I don't know why. There's no Levitical system, there's a sacrificial system. All the sacrifices throughout the Pentateuch are all part of the same sacrificial system, unless you can point to a difference between those mentioned in Leviticus and those mentioned in Exodus and Numbers.

Only the 5 in the first few chapters of Leviticus are the Levitical offerings. 3 of them are for atonement, that is the majority.

This is an arbitrary categorization. You're basically saying, "look if you check the first few pages of Leviticus and ignore all the other sacrifices mentioned throughout the Pentateuch, than you'll agree that the majority of offerings were for sins." That's arbitrary and self-serving.

 

[omega2xx]

Actually, there are 17 different grain based offerings which use flour. Only 2 have anything to do with sin. There is also a first-grain offering that is accompanied by the flour, but is an offering of grain. So which did you mean?

The offering you are referring to are not part of the levitical system and none of them are not for sin. I also don't think there are 17 of them . 3 or 4 at the most.

 

[omega2xx]

I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you trying to say that because these three sacrifices are not mentioned in the Book of Leviticus they are somehow not included in the categories of sacrifices offered by Jews in Temple times?

Only those mentioned in Leviticus are part of the levitical sacrifice offerings. The Passover is not an offering and it was prescribed before the levitical system was instituted. Also the tithe is not for sin.

Yeah I did.

the soul that sins will die. ... Everyone sins from time to time.​

​

Right.

Sure.
Your question:

What if the thief doe snot do any of those things but sells the animal and keeps the money?​

My response:

When a man steals an ox or a sheep and slaughters it or sells it; five cattle shall he pay in place of the ox and four sheep for the sheep.
- Ex. 21:37​

Right, but since that is sin, he should offer a sin offering for atonement. The prescribed penalty will not make atonement.​

Sure.

Murder is a sin. The sin offering applies.

The penalty for murders is death. An offering will not atone for that sin.​

In the earlier statement you say there is a sin offering for murder and in the latter you say there isn't.


The prosecuting party is dead. He is not capable of forgiving the murderer.

Since the death penalty is prescribed, I tend to agree with your there .

That being said, can you point to a verse that allows the judge to be lenient when the prosecuting party forgives the defendant?

Not the judge, the person offended. If you poke my yey out and you seem truly sorry, I think I can show mercy. Also, God shows us mercy for our sins and I think He is our example.

And again, can you point to the verse that prescribes a sin offering for murder.

No.

I think the problem is that for some reason you seem the Book of Leviticus as a separate Book from the rest of the Pentateuch. I don't know why. There's no Levitical system, there's a sacrificial system. All the sacrifices throughout the Pentateuch are all part of the same sacrificial system, unless you can point to a difference between those mentioned in Leviticus and those mentioned in Exodus and Numbers.

IMO, each book in the Pentateuch is a separate book, although that is not important.

This is an arbitrary categorization. You're basically saying, "look if you check the first few pages of Leviticus and ignore all the other sacrifices mentioned throughout the Pentateuch, than you'll agree that the majority of offerings were for sins." That's arbitrary and self-serving.

They are not. Most of them I can remember were for thanks. The wave offering was not for sins. Neither was the thank offering, the dedication offering, or the tithe offering. Those are the only ones I can remember.

 

[rosends]

The offering you are referring to are not part of the levitical system and none of them are not for sin. I also don't think there are 17 of them . 3 or 4 at the most.

You made a statement about grain. I mentioned flour. Now you are trying to decide what is part of the "Levitical system"? And by the way, some are for sin (your double negative notwithstanding) -- the Sinner's Mincha Offering and the Jealousy Mincha.

 

[omega2xx]

You made a statement about grain. I mentioned flour. Now you are trying to decide what is part of the "Levitical system"? And by the way, some are for sin (your double negative notwithstanding) -- the Sinner's Mincha Offering and the Jealousy Mincha. View attachment 17107

Couldn't read the book you posted.