Original Sin?

[URAVIP2ME]

So only christians recognize the scriptures? I doubt some of the other religions would like to hear that statement. God's purpose to correct our problems??? It seems like god created this problem in the first place.

Does God force anyone to love and obey him? No.
Satan was granted or gifted with the free will of choice to love or not love his Creator by obeying him.

If Satan had obeyed, if Adam had remained obedient, would we have the problem in the first place? No, because disobedience to God is what created the problems.

Basis position:
With disobedience came the reply of: okay fine, since you want to rule your selves then go ahead. You want Satan for your god then you got him.

That is why Satan at 2 Cor 4:4 is called the 'god of this world' of badness.

Satan, as this world's god, drags all of us into the picture by saying 'a' man at Job 2:4. 'A' man implies and challenges that all of us would turn away from God.

Didn't God send Jesus to be a ransom for us who will undo all the damage that started with Adam's disobedience to end during Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth?

 

[Falvlun]

Does God force anyone to love and obey him? No.
Satan was granted or gifted with the free will of choice to love or not love his Creator by obeying him.

If Satan had obeyed, if Adam had remained obedient, would we have the problem in the first place? No, because disobedience to God is what created the problems.

I didn't eat the forbidden fruit. Did you?

Why am I being punished for my great-grandpa's disobedience to God?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Does the Bible explain why God decided to condemn, and punish, the rest of mankind for Adam and Eve's choice? I simply cannot understand why each of us, individually, do not get the chance to start out in the Garden of Eden and decide whether we want to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree or not.
Do we throw the murderer's kids in jail with him when we convict him of murder? We don't, but apparently God does.

It may seem as if we are imprisoned in imperfect bodies. God did not put us in this position. Adam as our family head passed down human imperfection of mind and body to us, not God.

If God was going to condemn us he would Not have sent Jesus to be a ransom for us.

Right away still in Genesis (3:15) God informs us of prompt steps he was taking to minimize the bad consequences for us of what Satan and Adam did to us. Jesus proved to be that 'seed' that will destroy Satan with a fatal death bruise to his head. - Hebrews 2:14 B; Romans 16:20.

Long-term measures were needed because both Adam and Eve were disobedient. If Adam and Eve were destroyed immediately we simply would not be here. Time was needed for us to be born. Since we were all born after Adam's downfall into imperfection of mind and body, then we too inherited the same unhealthy human imperfection of mind and body from Adam. If we could stop sinning we would not die.

That is why in order to balance the scales of justice someone with human perfection was needed to prove faithful and obedient. That is why God sent his perfect Son here to undo what Adam did. The end result will be human perfection of mind and body for us during Jesus peaceful Millennial Reign over earth. With human perfection will come the ability not to sin by mistake which then leads to everlasting life.

 

[Falvlun]

It may seem as if we are imprisoned in imperfect bodies. God did not put us in this position. Adam as our family head passed down human imperfection of mind and body to us, not God.

God is the one who decided that sin was genetic.

 

[dust1n]

There was No fornication between Adam and Eve.

The bible doesn't say that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I didn't eat the forbidden fruit. Did you?
Why am I being punished for my great-grandpa's disobedience to God?

Ezekiel 18:20 starts out by informing us that the soul that sins dies, but then the verse goes on to say that the son will Not bear the iniquity of the father or visa versa.

We loose our life because we ourselves can not stop our own sinning.
With both Satan and Adam having perfection their sin could only be on purpose, deliberate, intentional, premeditated, willful. On the other hand, due to our imperfection, we can sin by mistake. Nevertheless, sin leads to death.

Adam's death ended in his destruction. Satan sinning will also lead to his destruction. All willfully unrepentant wicked ones will lead to destruction.- Psalm 92:7; Hebrews 2:14 B, 10:26; Romans 16:20.

Because we are imperfect our death frees or acquits us from our sins as Romans 6:7 says. That does not mean we are innocent, but just like a judge can pardon a person means that the [sin] charges no longer will stick.

Acts (24:15) assures us that there will be a resurrection for both just and unjust, righteous and unrighteous. The only exception will be those of Matthew 12:32 ; Hebrews 6:4-6.

We will have the chance to obtain the same healthy human perfection of mind and body as Adam originally had. This will be during Jesus peaceful thousand-year rule over earth. The sleeping dead will be resurrected, (Daniel 12:2,13) but those righteous ones still alive or still living on earth at the start of Jesus Millennial Reign will remain alive or keep on living right into Jesus ushering Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
These are the ones at Jesus right hand of favor (Matt 25:31,32).

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The bible doesn't say that.

What does Genesis 2:21-25 say?

Genesis 2:24 is what Jesus referred to at Matthew 19:5,6.
Gen 2:24 is where the marriage vow comes from.
The 'man' or bridegroom of Matt 19:6 originally would have been Adam.

Adam and Eve were married right after she was created.
According to Gen 2:24,25 Eve became Adam's 'wife'.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God is the one who decided that sin was genetic.

Didn't Adam and Eve plainly know that sin leads to death?
Please notice Eve's knowledgeable words to Satan at Gen 3:2,3.
Not eat, not touch because the result would be death.

No one forced them to disobey God. God already told them he had a tree and his words were like a 'No trespassing Sign' with known consequences.
Would you go over to someone else's fruit tree that had a 'Do Not Touch' sign on it and pick some fruit and start eating it? If a someone told you not to pick from his tree or you will end up dead, would you listen?

If Adam had listened or obeyed, Adam would still be alive today.
His perfect genetic makeup would have been passed down to us.
Adam's choice, not God, passed down imperfection to us.

Long-term measures allowed for us to born that otherwise we would not be here and those long-term measures allow in the end to result in the opportunity for perfect life for us starting with Jesus being the one that will usher in Peace on Earth.

 

[RecolitusNex]

Long-term measures allowed for us to born that otherwise we would not be here and those long-term measures allow in the end to result in the opportunity for perfect life for us starting with Jesus being the one that will usher in Peace on Earth.

Well he can't do much worse... it hasn't been too peaceful since his death. If god created everything, why did he create sin in the first place? Or this tree and its fruit? Or temptation? My original question still stands to be answered. Why, do christians believe in original sin and others do not?

If you take a truth (original word of god)... and you add details to fit your goals (any person who has had a part in the compilation of the bible), does it modify the original truth (word of god) enough to make it false? And if any part of the whole "truth" (current bible) is false, then how could you take any part of it as trustworthy at all??

 

[dogsgod]

I didn't eat the forbidden fruit. Did you?

Why am I being punished for my great-grandpa's disobedience to God?

I eat from the tree of knowledge every time I pick up a science book and learn.

 

[footprints]

Just as God's only-begotten Son had no heavenly mother, so too Adam as God's son (Luke 3:38) [and Eve] on earth had no mother. But all the rest of human creation does that the marriage vow would apply. -Matt 19:4,5

Yes ancient cultures in general were different from ancient Israelite culture.

Wasn't there a bride price, or marriage price, paid first to the girl's father?
Gen 34:12; Exo 22:16
Gen 29:18,20,27 also showing the 'price' could even be' paid in services' to the girl's father.

In patriarchal days, before the Constitution of the Mosaic law was instituted, there was no ceremony officiated by clergy. The bridegroom simply then took the bride publicly to his house or another's house where the marriage was not only acknowledged but recorded as a binding marriage. Gen 24:67
That is why there is the accurate genealogy of Christ Jesus.
- Luke 3:23-38; 2:1-5; Matt 1:1-16.

So in general you are saying the Israelite culture was the same as all other base root cultures.

Jacob and Rachel are the extension of the arranged marriage scenario. It is the move from family arranged, to a dowry or in this case exchange of labour for a wife. Which tends to suggest it would put it in the realm of 2000BCE and later period. This is futher evidenced due to the fact there was feast.

What we also learn from this story, is that God per se didn't give his direct blessing of this arranged union, and it was a matter of intelligent agreement after Jabob had deceived his own father. Which pretty much aligns with the tree of knowledge after mankind started using their own intelligence over the intelligence of God.

What is unknown in the period of ancient cultures, is the ratio of males to females. There is a lot of suggest evidence which says, females outnumbered males which is a far cry from todays standards where males outnumber females in nearly every age bracket. Given this fact, if the same laws were to be given today, by God or a Moses type person, it would say females were allowed more than one husband, but a husband only one wife. The other fact we can draw from this story is, after mankinds intelligence made women goods or property to swap and trade, it took nearly 4000 years for western societies to right this wrong and made women subject to their own choice based on love.

What is true will later be false. Mankinds intelligence certainly has a lot to answer for.

 

[Falvlun]

I eat from the tree of knowledge every time I pick up a science book and learn.

I was addressing the literal interpretation.

There are a number of metaphorical interpretations of the Garden of Evil and the Fall of Man that do not put God in quite so petty a light.

The one you are referencing is that the fruit from the tree of good and evil is equated to all knowledge. But this opens its own can of worms. Why would God forbid humans from obtaining knowledge about the world in which we were placed? Why would he give us the faculty for reason and the penchant for curiosity unless were were meant to crack open that science book and learn?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well he can't do much worse... it hasn't been too peaceful since his death. If god created everything, why did he create sin in the first place? Or this tree and its fruit? Or temptation? My original question still stands to be answered. Why, do christians believe in original sin and others do not?
If you take a truth (original word of god)... and you add details to fit your goals (any person who has had a part in the compilation of the bible), does it modify the original truth (word of god) enough to make it false? And if any part of the whole "truth" (current bible) is false, then how could you take any part of it as trustworthy at all??

When humans break men's law they are called criminals.
When humans break God's law they are called sinners.

God created law for the benefit and protection of all.
So it was not the one tree that was considered evil in itself, but rather the tree represented the law. The law was good in itself. Don't eat, won't die.
So Adam's downfall was because he disobeyed.

Temptation originates within, James (1:14,15), one's own desire run amok.
That megalomaniac Satan (Ezekiel 28:13-19) allowed his position as covering cherub or overseer in the Garden of Eden to go to his head, so to speak,
and allowed undo importance create in himself the desire to be worshiped by us humans. -Job 2:4.

The one tree that belonged to God would show all in heaven and earth that there would be those that would love and respect God's property.
A loving child generally wants to please a loving father.

Perfect creation only sins on purpose, willfully, premeditated so they are totally responsible for their actions. We being imperfect do sin by mistake.

Why do Christians believe in original sin? Because original means first.
Satan is the father of the first sin. Satan is the father of the lie.- John 8:44.
Adam committed the first or original sin by a human on earth by disobedience.
Willful disobedience was the beginning of sin in heaven and earth.
Disobedient to acting and thinking independent of God's wishes.
The original ones (Satan and A&E ) cutting God out of their lives.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I eat from the tree of knowledge every time I pick up a science book and learn.

Jesus ate from the tree of knowledge every time he picked up the Hebrew Scrolls. Already by age 12 Jesus had a well-balanced religious education.
Luke 2:42-52

The world values a well-balanced secular education and that does not mean one can not also have a well-rounded or balanced biblical education.

Scriptures say we should feed our heads. Just like the people of Acts 17:11.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So in general you are saying the Israelite culture was the same as all other base root cultures.

What is unknown in the period of ancient cultures, is the ratio of males to females. There is a lot of suggest evidence which says, females outnumbered males which is a far cry from todays standards where males outnumber females in nearly every age bracket. Given this fact, if the same laws were to be given today, by God or a Moses type person, it would say females were allowed more than one husband, but a husband only one wife. The other fact we can draw from this story is, after mankinds intelligence made women goods or property to swap and trade, it took nearly 4000 years for western societies to right this wrong and made women subject to their own choice based on love.
What is true will later be false. Mankinds intelligence certainly has a lot to answer for.

First, cultures outside of Israel had pagan origins. (Deut 12:31)
Only Israel had the God-given Constitution of the Mosaic law.

Good point about the ratio of men/women.
Because of wars women could have outnumbered men.
Under the patriarchs a man was allowed more than one wife so that if women outnumbered men then no woman would ever have to be without a husband or children of her own.

 

[footprints]

First, cultures outside of Israel had pagan origins. (Deut 12:31)
Only Israel had the God-given Constitution of the Mosaic law.

The Hebrew were given Mosaic law, other cultures were given similar laws. Some of these laws align with each other and others don't, albeit in the same breath, other cultures hadn't committed the same wrongs as the Hebrew did, so these things didn't need correcting in them.

Good point about the ratio of men/women.
Because of wars women could have outnumbered men.
Under the patriarchs a man was allowed more than one wife so that if women outnumbered men then no woman would ever have to be without a husband or children of her own.

So now that the world has turned, a woman should have more than one husband, so no man would ever have to be without a wife or children of his own. Therefore the laws of Jesus, Moses et al, would change to reflect this.

 

[cottage]

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't Christians alone in the belief of original sin? There are many arguments based on this concept alone. If I am right about this, why, if religion seems to change so drastically, do people still take the Bible as the answer to anything, much less everything? I'm not attacking anyone here... just trying to get answers. Thanks!

The Bible according to St Cottage

The Bible writers wanted to portray God as perfectly good. Unfortunately there was a teeny-weensy difficulty that got in the way of this portrayal: the undeniable fact of evil. The solution was to put the blame for this discrepancy on Adam and Eve. Now the Bible writers, astute fellows that they were, recognised that God wouldn't be able to punish those two unfortunates and put an end to the matter, because evil was going to continue notwithstanding. So the fact of evil and its continuation for generation upon generation was to be explained by 'original sin'.

Much later some other guys (who became known as Christians) chewed this concept over in their minds and decided that times had moved on and it was a bit too extreme for the more sophisticated readership of the day. They had this brilliant idea! God would send a messiah to earth who would then take upon himself all the evils of mankind. That would at once put a stop to the received view that God was vindictive and bloodthirsty. Now this didn't mean that all evil would cease, because of course they were aware of that nothing was going to change. And so they came up with the promise that, with certain provisions, all sins would be forgiven (even though sinning would still continue as before) and that mankind would live eternally. The beauty of this was that nobody could say God/Jesus had reneged on his promise. Honestly, you couldn't make it up!

 

[footprints]

Just as God's only-begotten Son had no heavenly mother, so too Adam as God's son (Luke 3:38) [and Eve] on earth had no mother.

Adam had a mother, the most beautiful mother in the Universe (albeit I am very biased, no offence meant to other mothers). Adams mother of course, the beautiful and gorgeous, Mother Earth from who's womb he is alledged to have came.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Adam had a mother, the most beautiful mother in the Universe (albeit I am very biased, no offence meant to other mothers). Adams mother of course, the beautiful and gorgeous, Mother Earth from who's womb he is alledged to have came.

I like your above ^ description.

What was previously meant was that Adam had no human for a mother.
The word father means life giver.
Adam did not receive life until his Father breathed the breath of life into Adam.
Then (Gen 2:7) after receiving the breath of life Adam became a living soul.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Much later some other guys (who became known as Christians) chewed this concept over in their minds and decided that times had moved on and it was a bit too extreme for the more sophisticated readership of the day. They had this brilliant idea! God would send a messiah to earth who would then take upon himself all the evils of mankind.

They (who became knows as Christians) did Not have the brilliant idea that God would send a messiah. They read about it at: Daniel 9:25,26.

Sure sin would continue until the 1000-year rule of Messiah comes over the earth. Then, at that time, death will be no more.- Rev 21:4

The Messiah could have come at any time in history between Genesis 3:15 and Revelation. The first century seemed to have the best situation or conditions existing on earth at that time of Roman peace in order for Jesus to accomplish his work.

Once the political 'kings' or world powers of earth (Rev 17:2,17) turn on the world's religious sector who plays false to God, (described as a religious 'queen' Rev 18:7), then there will be divine intervention into mankind's affairs not before.