Original Sin

[QuestioningMind]

Grief! You might as well ask, "why is there any suffering at all?"!

Simply put, in addition to the Serpent calling Jehovah God a liar, he also questioned God's right to tell A&E what to do. And when Adam joined Satan in his rebellion, Adam in effect refused God's rulership over him - Genesis 3:1-8. (And that was sin, which resulted in making their genetically perfect bodies, imperfect.)

Jehovah God has allowed humans full autonomy, ruling themselves. God has also removed His spirit, i.e., His power which imparts knowledge and protection, from the Earth itself (Isaiah 11:9). And He has let Satan influence mankind (Revelation 12:9), while He Himself has stayed out of human affairs for the most part.

The issue of sovereignty, i.e., can man rule himself or do we need God's rule, will soon be settled....but Jehovah would be defeating His side of the issue, if He stepped in every time there was an injustice!

This world's system, for now, is man's, not God's.
In fact, Jesus called Satan, "the ruler / prince of this world", not God.

Okay... so God create Adam naive and gullible enough so that a talking serpent (a serpent that God created and allowed into Eden, right?) could convince him to defy God. And God decides to punish his creation for having been created with this huge flaw and God continues to allow decedents thousands of years later to suffer because His original creation was poorly designed.

Yet SOMEHOW you conclude that God isn't in any way responsible? WOW.

 

[shunyadragon]

First, we are not talking about biological homosapiens with Adam and Eve. That much is clear, because they had the ability to make clothes. Second you have provided no evidence. Third I think that there is evidence of humans communicating with God, but may be not where you live.

it remains that your conclusion, not logical, that modern humans originated in Sumer, ie Adam and Eve, is based on religious assumptions. The evidence indicates that humans spread world wide out of Africa and spread across Eurasia ~500,000 years ago.

I believe in God and Revelation as well as communion by prayer and meditation, but I also realize that there is no convincing objective evidence for this. The evidence and experiences remain anecdotal.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well said, imo, but let me just add that the concept of "original sin" was and is controversial, even within Catholic circles. It is not found within Judaism, for example, and it really defines (defies?} logic if taken literally.

Therefore, many see it as being more or less symbolic of our propensity to sin as a byproduct of our free will. The issue of Jesus' "atonement" also doesn't make much sense at the literal level but can make sense symbolically.

Note possible correction?

The problem with the belief in Original Sin and the Jesus "atonement" is that they lie at the heart of traditional Christian beliefs as literal beliefs, and taught as such in all traditional Christian churches.

Ancient religions generally do not make sense in their literal stand alone claims of their exclusive relationship with God largely based on ancient mythology.

The Baha'i Faith considers them symbolic, and allegorical in the context of the religious beliefs of the time they were written. Beliefs evolve and matures over time just as humans physically evolved.

 

[tayla]

One of the biggest guilt trips ever inflicted on man, and a sacred cow that needs to be sent to the slaughter house.

Yes, the concept of original sin is man-made and harmful to the soul and to society.

 

[metis]

Note possible correction?

Thanks for that, and I'll correct it right after this post.

The problem with the belief in Original Sin and the Jesus "atonement" is that they lie at the heart of traditional Christian beliefs as literal beliefs, and taught as such in all traditional Christian churches.

Agree.

Ancient religions generally do not make sense in their literal stand alone claims of their exclusive relationship with God largely based on ancient mythology.

Yes, but they also had their own issues about the certainty of their beliefs. One thing I had to periodically remind my anthro students is that freedom of religion (or freedom from religion) was not a characteristic of ancient mythology, including animism. More diverse, yes, but also more ascribed roles.

The Baha'i Faith considers them symbolic, and allegorical in the context of the religious beliefs of the time they were written. Beliefs evolve and matures over time just as humans physically evolved.

And it's even evolving with so many in Christianity and Judaism. Unfortunately, imo, some do tend to take some steps backward, especially in failing societies whereas there's a tendency towards nativism-- "let's go back to the 'good old days'", which is often a byproduct of a society in decline and/or a rebellion against modernism.

See, we can agree on some things!

 

[outlawState]

it remains that your conclusion, not logical, that modern humans originated in Sumer, ie Adam and Eve, is based on religious assumptions. The evidence indicates that humans spread world wide out of Africa and spread across Eurasia ~500,000 years ago.

You're not getting my gist. I am not talking about homosapiens whether modern or ancient. I am talking about "the man became a living being" Gen 2:7.

I am saying that we have to understand "became a living being" in a rather different sense to the biological sense. We have to understand Gen 2 spiritually. Adam became "a spiritual being" as distinct from other humanoids.

The bible often refers to unregenerate persons as "beasts." We have to understand that the bible is the history of spiritual beings. Adam was the first spiritual being.

I believe in God and Revelation as well as communion by prayer and meditation, but I also realize that there is no convincing objective evidence for this. The evidence and experiences remain anecdotal.

You're asked to believe in Christ. No one comes to God but by Christ. If you have no evidence of religious experience, lack of faith in Jesus may be why, although I have no knowledge of what you believe. For "I believe in God, the father almighty, creator of heaven and earth" - as per the first sentence of the apostles creed - is not really saying anything, as even the devil believes that (cf. James 2:19).

 

[metis]

You're asked to believe in Christ. No one comes to God but by Christ. If you have no evidence of religious experience, lack of faith in Jesus may be why, although I have no knowledge of what you believe.

It's this kind of condescending judgementalism that makes me so happy I left the fundamentalist Protestant church I grew up in over 50 years ago with their "my way or the highway" approach.

Fortunately, a significant number of Christian churches have moved beyond judgementalism. If a god condemns others simply because they don't have the politically-correct belief cited above, then that god would have to be considered a ruthless maniac, imo.

Jesus' message strongly emphasized love, compassion, and justice for all, thus "agape" that implies an active and all-encompassing love for all. IOW, one doesn't just have love for all-- they live it.

Yes, belief in God was and is important, but it was Jesus himself who warned his followers to "judge ye not...". Unfortunately, all too many do what he said not to do.

 

[shunyadragon]

You're not getting my gist. I am not talking about homosapiens whether modern or ancient. I am talking about "the man became a living being" Gen 2:7.

I am saying that we have to understand "became a living being" in a rather different sense to the biological sense. We have to understand Gen 2 spiritually. Adam became "a spiritual being" as distinct from other humanoids.

The bible often refers to unregenerate persons as "beasts." We have to understand that the bible is the history of spiritual beings. Adam was the first spiritual being.

I get your gist, but it remains your assertions remain based on a religious agenda and not a matter of logic.

You're asked to believe in Christ. No one comes to God but by Christ. If you have no evidence of religious experience, lack of faith in Jesus may be why, although I have no knowledge of what you believe. For "I believe in God, the father almighty, creator of heaven and earth" - as per the first sentence of the apostles creed - is not really saying anything, as even the devil believes that (cf. James 2:19).

This remains a religious claim, asking others to convert based on your assertions, and nothing here based on evidence, nor the subject of the thread,

 

[Deeje]

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Almost as good as Jesus' "massage".

 

[savagewind]

 

[Trackdayguy]

Ummmmm.

 

[shunyadragon]

Ummmmm.

"No man is free who is not a master of himself"

"No human is free who claims to be a master of himself."

Frankus Doonanus the Lesser of all that is Greater

 

[Deeje]

This is a question for science, surely? All organisms die, do they not? How could it be otherwise?

Why do you think we are the only creatures on the planet who worry about death? No other creature even has a concept of their own demise. We were originally created to live forever on this earth, so death is not 'programmed' into the only creature who can intelligently consider what it means. It terrifies some people....it makes others spend thousands of dollars, seeking perpetual youth who end up looking like this....

or this......

or even this...

....to chase the youth that they have lost. Where do you draw the line before it becomes pathetic?

Aging is an affront because it goes against everything in us that is programmed to stay young.

The only way to explain this uniquely human problem is to understand why we die when there is nothing in us to accept it?

King David wrote...."Look! with error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5) Was David calling his mother a whore? NO! He was referring back to the sin that we all carry in our genes.

"Sin" is an archery term that literally means to "miss the mark". When Paul wrote that we all inherited sin from our first parents, (Romans 5:12) he meant that imperfection leading to death was now somehow programmed into our genetics. Sin is 'imperfection' leading to a propensity to go the wrong way....to make the wrong decisions and to travel the wrong road. We have no control over the passing on of this kind of "sin" to our children.....However there is another kind of sin......imperfection leads to sinful actions, which is what we can control.

God does not hold us accountable for the "original sin" in our nature, but he does hold us accountable for our decisions to commit wrong acts with our bodies. We cannot use our sinful nature as an excuse because we drive this body and we can control it along with the thoughts that precipitate our actions. God provided all we need to deal with this situation....his written word. Its all there.

That is how I see things.

 

[exchemist]

Why do you think we are the only creatures on the planet who worry about death? No other creature even has a concept of their own demise. We were originally created to live forever on this earth, so death is not 'programmed' into the only creature who can intelligently consider what it means. It terrifies some people....it makes others spend thousands of dollars, seeking perpetual youth who end up looking like this....

or this......

or even this...

....to chase the youth that they have lost. Where do you draw the line before it becomes pathetic?

Aging is an affront because it goes against everything in us that is programmed to stay young.

The only way to explain this uniquely human problem is to understand why we die when there is nothing in us to accept it?

King David wrote...."Look! with error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5) Was David calling his mother a whore? NO! He was referring back to the sin that we all carry in our genes.

"Sin" is an archery term that literally means to "miss the mark". When Paul wrote that we all inherited sin from our first parents, (Romans 5:12) he meant that imperfection leading to death was now somehow programmed into our genetics. Sin is 'imperfection' leading to a propensity to go the wrong way....to make the wrong decisions and to travel the wrong road. We have no control over the passing on of this kind of "sin" to our children.....However there is another kind of sin......imperfection leads to sinful actions, which is what we can control.

God does not hold us accountable for the "original sin" in our nature, but he does hold us accountable for our decisions to commit wrong acts with our bodies. We cannot use our sinful nature as an excuse because we drive this body and we can control it along with the thoughts that precipitate our actions. God provided all we need to deal with this situation....his written word. Its all there.

That is how I see things.

The fact that human beings worry about death is hardly evidence that they are naturally immortal. We cannot talk to animals so we have difficulty knowing what they think, but a rabbit being attacked by a stoat screams, with terror in its eyes. It certainly seems to fear death.

(Regarding your ghastly pictures, learning to age with dignity, grace and acceptance is a challenge that many people manage, though obviously the ones in your pictures - and the current orange president of the US - have failed! I struggle with it daily myself, as a formerly fit and active oarsman, now needing to contend with worn out joints and a heart arrhythmia.)

Some people think the human need for religion arises from the combination of our fear of death and the unique power of the human psyche and imagination. My own view, having lost my wife to cancer 18 months ago, is that religion is less about fear of death (I don't think I fear it now) than about comfort, for those who loved the dead, that the beloved has not just ceased to be and that there is the prospect of a reunion. I am not sure I believe it, much though the idea is appealing.

As it is, I see (Christian) religion as providing a guide for living, through the example and teaching of Christ, community, calm and respite from daily life, and a sense of continuity with previous generations of humanity through tradition and ritual.

But our bodies age and die like any other organism.

 

[Deeje]

The fact that human beings worry about death is hardly evidence that they are naturally immortal.

I never mentioned immortality. Humans are not programmed for death because it was never meant to happen.
Immortals cannot die so we were never designed to be immortal....we were designed to have everlasting life. There is a difference. Humans were provided with the means to live forever in their mortal flesh, right here on earth in the beginning. They lost access to that means through disobedience. But since we age in our body degenerating into inevitable death, our minds have difficulty rising above our programming. Inside we stay young...we only age outside. Its hard to come to terms with.

We cannot talk to animals so we have difficulty knowing what they think, but a rabbit being attacked by a stoat screams, with terror in its eyes. It certainly seems to fear death.

Animals live in the present....they have no concept of the past or the future. They cannot conceptualize their own death even though they might exhibit fear in the moments preceding death. They have a fight or flight response programmed into them as a preservation mechanism.....they might cheat death today but be food for someone tomorrow. They don't lie awake worrying about such things. Only humans do that.

We are not animals.....we are created to be their caretakers as representatives of our Creator, endowed with his attributes and qualities which would make our role more significant than just being programmed like all the other creatures, operating purely by instinct.

(Regarding your ghastly pictures, learning to age with dignity, grace and acceptance is a challenge that many people manage, though obviously the ones in your pictures - and the current orange president of the US - have failed! I struggle with it daily myself, as a formerly fit and active oarsman, now needing to contend with worn out joints and a heart arrhythmia.)

I understand...I am not young anymore either, and I too have lost my significant other....yet the Bible gives me an explanation for so many things that science cannot. I for one, need those explanations to make sense of my life and our place in the wider scheme of things. I see who we are and why we are here...and more importantly, where we are going in the future.

Some people think the human need for religion arises from the combination of our fear of death and the unique power of the human psyche and imagination. My own view, having lost my wife to cancer 18 months ago, is that religion is less about fear of death (I don't think I fear it now) than about comfort, for those who loved the dead, that the beloved has not just ceased to be and that there is the prospect of a reunion. I am not sure I believe it, much though the idea is appealing.

There is a reason why it is appealing.....we long for such a reunion because God says it will happen.
Why create humans with needs that can never be met? That is just cruel.

But our bodies age and die like any other organism.

The Bible says that too, but it just doesn't gel with our programming. No one with a measure of health wants to die. If we were meant to die, it would feel natural....it is still as foreign to us as now it was when it first happened.

I have great faith in the Bible's promise of a resurrection.....being reunited with those we have lost is what God wants to do....death is an affront to him too. This is not the life he meant for us to live.

 

[Hawkins]

One of the biggest guilt trips ever inflicted on man, and a sacred cow that needs to be sent to the slaughter house.

OVER 100 BIBLE TEXTS THAT SHOW THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN IS UNBIBLICAL AND FALSE

Author: Jesus didn't believe in 'original sin' and neither should we - Religion News Service

It's rather a yes and no. I agree that the term is widely mistranslated, misleading and misused.

I believe that idea is originated with some Bible verses tend to describe how humans sin even in wombs and how humans can't help but being corrupted. So by a superficial speculation, people start to get to the conclusion that we all have the so-called original sin. However no one can accurately describe what it is.

IMO, "original sin" is rather a mixture of cultural effects, social effects and supernatural effects. In the past, humans don't know children can be "educated" when in wombs. Science however told us that babies in womb can actually be educated in a form. Parents can start to talk to them or play some music for them to listen. It says that babies in wombs can actually start to receive information. Now it boils down to who can provide them with information, other than their parents that is. I believe Satan and his horde of force can. They can start to influence babies in wombs. That's one of sources accountable for our sinful nature.

I also believe that children start to build up their characteristics during very early stage of their lives. They absorb or receive education from the environment. Social effects and cultural effects can influence them. These all can be sources of our "sinful nature". We all are educated since being in womb and through the whole of our early childhood which is crucial in building up our tendency and even who we are. That's why sometimes God has to cut peoples as a branch of a tree. You can't beat the effects established socially and culturally. Satan is trying his best to gain control on these social and cultural effects to keep humans captive. I speculate that what we call western countries are actually an area once covered by "good" culture resulted by the influence of Christianity, that is, by the light and salt of this world.

 

[Trackdayguy]

It's rather a yes and no. I agree that the term is widely mistranslated, misleading and misused.

I believe that idea is originated with some Bible verses tend to describe how humans sin even in wombs and how humans can't help but being corrupted. So by a superficial speculation, people start to get to the conclusion that we all have the so-called original sin. However no one can accurately describe what it is.

IMO, "original sin" is rather a mixture of cultural effects, social effects and supernatural effects. In the past, humans don't know children can be "educated" when in wombs. Science however told us that babies in womb can actually be educated in a form. Parents can start to talk to them or play some music for them to listen. It says that babies in wombs can actually start to receive information. Now it boils down to who can provide them with information, other than their parents that is. I believe Satan and his horde of force can. They can start to influence babies in wombs. That's one of sources accountable for our sinful nature.

I also believe that children start to build up their characteristics during very early stage of their lives. They absorb or receive education from the environment. Social effects and cultural effects can influence them. These all can be sources of our "sinful nature". We all are educated since being in womb and through the whole of our early childhood which is crucial in building up our tendency and even who we are. That's why sometimes God has to cut peoples as a branch of a tree. You can't beat the effects established socially and culturally. Satan is trying his best to gain control on these social and cultural effects to keep humans captive. I speculate that what we call western countries are actually an area once covered by "good" culture resulted by the influence of Christianity, that is, by the light and salt of this world.

There is no doubt that some aspects of Christianity have had a positive affect on man kind, (or is it "person kind now" is the politically correct word) however much damage has also been done due to its divisiveness.

Sounds like your concept of Satan has almost as much power as your God. I also used to believe that when I was a literalist.

 

[Hawkins]

There is no doubt that some aspects of Christianity have had a positive affect on man kind, (or is it "person kind now" is the politically correct word) however much damage has also been done due to its divisiveness.

Sounds like your concept of Satan has almost as much power as your God. I also used to believe that when I was a literalist.

Well, it's never about power. It's all about the purpose of planet earth. Have you ever built an aquarium? Heaven is the aquarium itself. Planet earth is the filter where all kinds of dirty can grow such that they will be destroyed once and for all, in order to secure the clearness of the aquarium. You are not powerless about the dirty inside the filter, you allow the dirty grow for a purpose.