Origin of homophobia?

[King Phenomenon]

If God is so against homosexuality, why does he create so many homosexuals?

Most gay people don't care What god thinks anyway

 

[halbhh]

Christ thought homosexuality is wrong

If you mean simply gay disposition/temperament, then there is no basis for such an anti-gay position in the 4 gospels accounts unless a person adds things nowhere in the text, even though He does clearly talk about for instance heterosexual marriage and divorce, without referencing gay relationships at all (there is nothing about gay relationships). I'm merely conveying what I know from reading all four gospels multiple times. I did not read for an agenda, or to support a doctrine, but instead with a true listening, to hear and understand what is being said. As we already discussed previously, both heterosexual and homosexual couples can do wrongful actions, but needn't, and can have intimacy routinely without breaking any instructions in the texts.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I've heard people on here say homophobia can be attributed mostly to the rise of Christianity but is it that simple? Perhaps homosexuality 200,000 to 1,000,000 years ago had a role in small groups where one male dominated both male and female and the lesser males started developing homophobic traits over time which carried over into ideologies as they started to take shape and ultimately 'homophobic' religions like Christianity were born, no? We did evolve into something a bit different than other animals so that in and of itself shows that we could've developed homophobic traits over time. Regular animals that practice homosexuality aren't homophobic. So I think it's likely homophobia could've developed 200,000 to 1,000,000 years ago given the nature of the genus homo and what it's become today. I don't know if I'm convinced that 'monkeymen' were all lovable, cuddly, sweet and innocent.

Entirely false, and where hatred of intolerance of homosexuals is ot found we don't find homophobia. But, where its law that men who lie with men as they would a woman is to be put to death and their blood is on their hands, then you find homosexuals repressed, degraded, harassed, burnded alive, impaled, beheaded, crucified, and thrown off buildings(so much for the love of god/Christ/Allah).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Most gay people don't care What god thinks anyway

They dont care about what YOUR god thinks.

 

[King Phenomenon]

They dont care about what YOUR god thinks.

not my god

 

[King Phenomenon]

Entirely false, and where hatred of intolerance of homosexuals is ot found we don't find homophobia. But, where its law that men who lie with men as they would a woman is to be put to death and their blood is on their hands, then you find homosexuals repressed, degraded, harassed, burnded alive, impaled, beheaded, crucified, and thrown off buildings(so much for the love of god/Christ/Allah).

Yeah I could be wrong. just pondering the origin of homophobia. I find it interesting

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Oh and he's not my god

Then who's god? Many homosexuals are actually religious and do care about what their god says.

 

[King Phenomenon]

Then who's god? Many homosexuals are actually religious and do care about what their god says.

Yeah there's another thread about that. one person was saying there's many and another person saying there wasnt. Who knows. They said if they were Gay that They definitely wouldn't be following a God like that. I thought about it and it really wouldn't make sense for me to be a homosexual and to follow a god who was against it. However I do respect ones path. And if you're referring to God who accepts homosexuality then that's cool too.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yeah there's another thread about that. one person was saying there's many and another person saying there wasnt. Who knows. They said if they were Gay that They definitely wouldn't be following a God like that. I thought about it and it really wouldn't make sense for me to be a homosexual and to be a Christian. However I do respect ones path. And if you're referring to God who accepts homosexuality then that's cool too.

I'm bi and trans, and a Christian. Most of the LGBT people I know are Christians, if they have a religion.

 

[King Phenomenon]

I'm bi and trans, and a Christian. Most of the LGBT people I know are Christians, if they have a religion.

That's cool

 

[halbhh]

Entirely false, and where hatred of intolerance of homosexuals is ot found we don't find homophobia. But, where its law that men who lie with men as they would a woman is to be put to death and their blood is on their hands, then you find homosexuals repressed, degraded, harassed, burnded alive, impaled, beheaded, crucified, and thrown off buildings(so much for the love of god/Christ/Allah).

Demolition of the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow on the orders of Joseph Stalin, 5 December 1931

" From 1932 to 1937 Joseph Stalin declared the 'five-year plans of atheism' and the LMG was charged with completely eliminating all religious expression in the country.[73]
...
"During the first five years of Soviet power, the Bolsheviks executed 28 Russian Orthodox bishops and over 1,200 Russian Orthodox priests. Many others were imprisoned or exiled.[2]"
Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia


"In 1917, the Russian Revolution saw the overthrow of the Tsarist government and the subsequent foundation of the Russian SFSR, the world's first socialist state, followed by the founding of the Soviet Union after the end of the civil war in 1922. The Bolsheviks rewrote the constitution and "produced two Criminal Codes – in 1922 and 1926 – and an article prohibiting gay sex was left off both."[3] The new Communist Party government eradicated the old laws regarding sexual relations, effectively legalising homosexual and transgender activity within Russia, although it remained illegal in other former territories of the Russian Empire. Yet gay people were still persecuted and sacked from their jobs for being 'homosexuals'.[3]

"In 1933, the Soviet government under the leadership of Joseph Stalin recriminalised homosexual activity with punishments of up to five years' hard labour. ..."
LGBT history in Russia - Wikipedia

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Demolition of the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow on the orders of Joseph Stalin, 5 December 1931

" From 1932 to 1937 Joseph Stalin declared the 'five-year plans of atheism' and the LMG was charged with completely eliminating all religious expression in the country.[73]
...
"During the first five years of Soviet power, the Bolsheviks executed 28 Russian Orthodox bishops and over 1,200 Russian Orthodox priests. Many others were imprisoned or exiled.[2]"
Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia


"In 1917, the Russian Revolution saw the overthrow of the Tsarist government and the subsequent foundation of the Russian SFSR, the world's first socialist state, followed by the founding of the Soviet Union after the end of the civil war in 1922. The Bolsheviks rewrote the constitution and "produced two Criminal Codes – in 1922 and 1926 – and an article prohibiting gay sex was left off both."[3] The new Communist Party government eradicated the old laws regarding sexual relations, effectively legalising homosexual and transgender activity within Russia, although it remained illegal in other former territories of the Russian Empire. Yet gay people were still persecuted and sacked from their jobs for being 'homosexuals'.[3]

"In 1933, the Soviet government under the leadership of Joseph Stalin recriminalised homosexual activity with punishments of up to five years' hard labour. ..."
LGBT history in Russia - Wikipedia

What of it? The Tsars were Christian, and Stalin fell back on that tradition.

 

[halbhh]

What of it? The Tsars were Christian, and Stalin fell back on that tradition.

(I think you should like this post and conclusion....)

Well, you could say Stalin fell back on Christianity in a certain way, but notice the precise details --

The USSR anti-religious campaign of 1928–1941 was a new phase of anti-religious campaign in the Soviet Union following the anti-religious campaign of 1921–1928. The campaign began in 1929, with the drafting of new legislation that severely prohibited religious activities and called for a education process on religion in order to further disseminate atheism and materialist philosophy. This had been preceded in 1928 at the fifteenth party congress, where Joseph Stalin criticized the party for failure to produce more active and persuasive anti-religious propaganda.
...
The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church and Islam, which had the largest number of faithful. Nearly all of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labour camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited.[1] More than 85,000 Orthodox priests were shot in 1937 alone.[2]
USSR anti-religious campaign (1928–1941) - Wikipedia

But when the Germany invaded powerfully in WW2, pushing towards the heart of the Soviet Union, and Stalin then facing his own end at German hands...

"Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort and presented Russia as a defender of Christian civilization, because he saw the church had an ability to arouse the people in a way that the party could not and because he wanted western help.[7] On September 4, 1943, Metropolitans Sergius (Stragorodsky), Alexius (Simansky) and Nicholas (Yarushevich) were officially received by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin who proposed to create the Moscow Patriarchate."
Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

But look closer --

"Even after the rapprochement, there was still use of terror tactics in some cases. After the Red Army recaptured occupied territories, many clergy in these territories were arrested and sent to prisons or camps for very long terms, allegedly for collaboration with the Germans, but effectively for their rebuilding of religious life underneath the occupation.[88]"

So, like Hitler (who would privately speak of needing to end Christianity entirely), Stalin did cynically use religion as a state tool to increase his own power/control. (And of course the Nazis did even worse to gay people than the Soviets)

And the continuing prohibition of homosexuality in actual practice:
LGBT history in Russia - Wikipedia

So, it's as I was pointing out above in my previous post (post #4 in this thread) --

It's tyrants that actually have persecuted gay people, dramatically

as opposed to the "meek" that actually believe in Christ fully enough to actually listen to more of what He says and put it into practice, to love all their neighbors. Actual believers that believe enough to listen and do what Christ said don't go around trying to persecute or condemn any group of people. Not ever. That's for tyrants and non-believers that are using religion as a tool.


@Power Stone

 

[Shadow Wolf]

(I think you should like this post and conclusion....)

Well, you could say Stalin fell back on Christianity in a certain way, but notice the precise details --

The USSR anti-religious campaign of 1928–1941 was a new phase of anti-religious campaign in the Soviet Union following the anti-religious campaign of 1921–1928. The campaign began in 1929, with the drafting of new legislation that severely prohibited religious activities and called for a education process on religion in order to further disseminate atheism and materialist philosophy. This had been preceded in 1928 at the fifteenth party congress, where Joseph Stalin criticized the party for failure to produce more active and persuasive anti-religious propaganda.
...
The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church and Islam, which had the largest number of faithful. Nearly all of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labour camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited.[1] More than 85,000 Orthodox priests were shot in 1937 alone.[2]
USSR anti-religious campaign (1928–1941) - Wikipedia

But when the Germany invaded powerfully in WW2, pushing towards the heart of the Soviet Union, and Stalin then facing his own end at German hands...

"Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort and presented Russia as a defender of Christian civilization, because he saw the church had an ability to arouse the people in a way that the party could not and because he wanted western help.[7] On September 4, 1943, Metropolitans Sergius (Stragorodsky), Alexius (Simansky) and Nicholas (Yarushevich) were officially received by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin who proposed to create the Moscow Patriarchate."
Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

But look closer --

"Even after the rapprochement, there was still use of terror tactics in some cases. After the Red Army recaptured occupied territories, many clergy in these territories were arrested and sent to prisons or camps for very long terms, allegedly for collaboration with the Germans, but effectively for their rebuilding of religious life underneath the occupation.[88]"

So, like Hitler (who would privately speak of needing to end Christianity entirely), Stalin did cynically use religion as a state tool to increase his own power/control. (And of course the Nazis did even worse to gay people than the Soviets)

And the continuing prohibition of homosexuality in actual practice:
LGBT history in Russia - Wikipedia

So, it's as I was pointing out above in my previous post (post #4 in this thread) --

It's tyrants that actually have persecuted gay people, dramatically

as opposed to the "meek" that actually believe in Christ fully enough to actually listen to more of what He says and put it into practice, to love all their neighbors. Actual believers that believe enough to listen and do what Christ said don't go around trying to persecute or condemn any group of people. Not ever. That's for tyrants and non-believers that are using religion as a tool.


@Power Stone

All youve done is shown a place heavily steeped in Christianity ended and then brought back LGBT persecution, which never went away to begin with.

 

[halbhh]

All youve done is shown a place heavily steeped in Christianity ended and then brought back LGBT persecution, which never went away to begin with.

It's the very first thing to look for, and I did.

Right? (it's what you thought of, and I did too)

Whether some tyrants that were not at all influenced even a moment by Christianity were also anti-gay, persecuting gay people.

"By 1655, Qing courts began to refer to the term ji jian (雞姦 sodomy) to apply to homosexual anal intercourse. Society began to emphasise strict obedience to the social order, which referred to a relationship between husband and wife. In 1740, an anti-homosexual decree was promulgated, defining voluntarily homosexual intercourse between adults as illegal. Though there were no records on the effectiveness of this decree, it was the first time homosexuality had been subject to legal proscription in China. The punishment, which included a month in prison and 100 heavy blows with heavy bamboo, was actually the lightest punishment which existed in the Qing legal system.[10]
...

People's Republic of China
Homosexuality was largely invisible during the Mao era because homosexuality was pathologised and criminalized.[6] During the Communist Cultural Revolution (1966 to 1976), homosexuals were regarded as "disgraceful" and "undesirable", and heavily persecuted.[18][19]"
LGBT history in Russia - Wikipedia

And so on.

It's unsurprisingly brutal dictators that persecute homosexuality, because they want a total power and control and to use the people as resources for their own power.

This is not even surprising.

 

[King Phenomenon]

(I think you should like this post and conclusion....)

Well, you could say Stalin fell back on Christianity in a certain way, but notice the precise details --

The USSR anti-religious campaign of 1928–1941 was a new phase of anti-religious campaign in the Soviet Union following the anti-religious campaign of 1921–1928. The campaign began in 1929, with the drafting of new legislation that severely prohibited religious activities and called for a education process on religion in order to further disseminate atheism and materialist philosophy. This had been preceded in 1928 at the fifteenth party congress, where Joseph Stalin criticized the party for failure to produce more active and persuasive anti-religious propaganda.
...
The main target of the anti-religious campaign in the 1920s and 1930s was the Russian Orthodox Church and Islam, which had the largest number of faithful. Nearly all of its clergy, and many of its believers, were shot or sent to labour camps. Theological schools were closed, and church publications were prohibited.[1] More than 85,000 Orthodox priests were shot in 1937 alone.[2]
USSR anti-religious campaign (1928–1941) - Wikipedia

But when the Germany invaded powerfully in WW2, pushing towards the heart of the Soviet Union, and Stalin then facing his own end at German hands...

"Joseph Stalin revived the Russian Orthodox Church to intensify patriotic support for the war effort and presented Russia as a defender of Christian civilization, because he saw the church had an ability to arouse the people in a way that the party could not and because he wanted western help.[7] On September 4, 1943, Metropolitans Sergius (Stragorodsky), Alexius (Simansky) and Nicholas (Yarushevich) were officially received by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin who proposed to create the Moscow Patriarchate."
Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

But look closer --

"Even after the rapprochement, there was still use of terror tactics in some cases. After the Red Army recaptured occupied territories, many clergy in these territories were arrested and sent to prisons or camps for very long terms, allegedly for collaboration with the Germans, but effectively for their rebuilding of religious life underneath the occupation.[88]"

So, like Hitler (who would privately speak of needing to end Christianity entirely), Stalin did cynically use religion as a state tool to increase his own power/control. (And of course the Nazis did even worse to gay people than the Soviets)

And the continuing prohibition of homosexuality in actual practice:
LGBT history in Russia - Wikipedia

So, it's as I was pointing out above in my previous post (post #4 in this thread) --

It's tyrants that actually have persecuted gay people, dramatically

as opposed to the "meek" that actually believe in Christ fully enough to actually listen to more of what He says and put it into practice, to love all their neighbors. Actual believers that believe enough to listen and do what Christ said don't go around trying to persecute or condemn any group of people. Not ever. That's for tyrants and non-believers that are using religion as a tool.


@Power Stone

Yeah but it still remains Christ was against homosexuality and yes he did preach not to judge

 

[halbhh]

Yeah but it still remains Christ was against homosexuality ...

Tell me what makes you think Christ said such. Where?

 

[Piculet]

Tell me what makes you think Christ said such. Where?

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

 

[halbhh]

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Ah, what we've already discussed then, trying to interpret correctly.

But (!)...

He, Himself, said here's how to understand the full exact meaning/essence of the Law (and there is no higher authority than He, not ever!)--

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

It's the how to understand, and the how to do.

It's very helpful, so often, when we wonder how something works.

It's the full, final authority.

 

[King Phenomenon]

Tell me what makes you think Christ said such. Where?

See post 138