1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Origin of homophobia?

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Power Stone, Aug 12, 2020.

  1. Power Stone

    Power Stone Unknown Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2019
    Messages:
    1,908
    Ratings:
    +509
    I've heard people on here say homophobia can be attributed mostly to the rise of Christianity but is it that simple? Perhaps homosexuality 200,000 to 1,000,000 years ago had a role in small groups where one male dominated both male and female and the lesser males started developing homophobic traits over time which carried over into ideologies as they started to take shape and ultimately 'homophobic' religions like Christianity were born, no? We did evolve into something a bit different than other animals so that in and of itself shows that we could've developed homophobic traits over time. Regular animals that practice homosexuality aren't homophobic. So I think it's likely homophobia could've developed 200,000 to 1,000,000 years ago given the nature of the genus homo and what it's become today. I don't know if I'm convinced that 'monkeymen' were all lovable, cuddly, sweet and innocent.
     
    #1 Power Stone, Aug 12, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
  2. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2019
    Messages:
    981
    Ratings:
    +450
    Religion:
    Rescued of Jesus the Christ
    That's not even slightly true. Even though plenty of bigots have tried to call themselves 'Christian', and some non Christian cultures have been wonderfully inclusive, just like Christians are to be and many are. But the world has seen a lot of non Christian cultures that are homophobic. It so happens the largest nation today (with few Christians also) has been such mostly and still has much prejudice in its culture last I read.
     
    #2 halbhh, Aug 12, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Power Stone

    Power Stone Unknown Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2019
    Messages:
    1,908
    Ratings:
    +509
    So when did homophobia start ?
     
  4. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2019
    Messages:
    981
    Ratings:
    +450
    Religion:
    Rescued of Jesus the Christ
    Good question, and I'm curious to find out.

    ...

    ... homophobia seems favored by tyrants is one thing I'm noticing in reading on it so far.

    In the modern world it seems the (more Christian than most nations) U.S. led the way in creating positive change in favor of same sex relationship freedom, through 74 nations still outlaw it.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Power Stone

    Power Stone Unknown Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2019
    Messages:
    1,908
    Ratings:
    +509
    Well Christianity didn't help with all the talk of thou shall not lie with a man right?
     
  6. Callisto

    Callisto Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    518
    Ratings:
    +366
    Religion:
    Dodekatheism, BTW
    Abrahamic religions may not have originated homophobia however "intolerance toward homosexual behaviour grew particularly in the Middle Ages, especially among the adherents of Christianity and Islam." (source)

    Also,

    "For the most part, any homosexual behaviour was considered sinful by medieval society, and often laws against sodomy proscribed harsh penalties such as castration and execution. On the other hand, research has revealed that at times, same-sex relationships were tolerated and that positive depictions about homosexuality can be found in medieval literature." (source below)

    Same-Sex Relations in the Middle Ages
    - this page has several links to various related essays and articles.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. Power Stone

    Power Stone Unknown Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2019
    Messages:
    1,908
    Ratings:
    +509
    I know all that. I'm trying to get at the root
     
  8. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,770
    Ratings:
    +1,594
    Religion:
    Atheist/non-religious
    That's not a social structure observed in any tribalistic human society nor is it supported by studies on genetics. Harems, where one man control access to the sexuality of many women, are expection not a norm.

    Homophobia is simply a form of xenophobia, a fear and disgust of the unknown and the "other" that is a by-product of tribalism. There is no fundamental difference between homophobia and the fear of of whores or the fear of black people or the fear of foreigners, etc. The only thing that was needed for "homophobia" to appear was a person who strikes high in the psychological scale for conventionalism that has no experience with homosexuality being exposed to it. The instinctive response of that person will be a mix of fear and disgust. You will notice that homophobia is highly comorbid with other form of xenophobia and bigotry.
     
    #8 epronovost, Aug 13, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
    • Like Like x 4
    • Winner Winner x 3
  9. Amanaki

    Amanaki Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    10,798
    Ratings:
    +6,364
    Religion:
    Sunni Islam
    Homophobia did not come from this line in the Bible. All religions and spiritual practice I know of has a form of that line in their teaching, long before christianity. Phobia is fear of something, not just a morally guideline from a spiritual teaching.

    Homophobia comes from the fear of having sex with the same sex as one self.
    I know because I had this feeling of aversion toward other men since I was a little boy. I am no longer directly homophobic, but still I struggle in trusting any male who I meet.
    I never shower in public showers, because it make me feel sick.
    The notion of being bossed around by other men had always been a fear for me, so no it is not only a fear of having sex with an other man, but in my case that would be the biggest immorally thing that could happen to me.
    But what others do is none of my business. I only speak for how see it.
     
  10. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Asinine, socialist-leaning, puerile filth
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    6,382
    Ratings:
    +2,902
    Religion:
    The one we are born with; therefore being none.
    Well you could look at it this way - not that I do. :oops: Homosexuality might be a feedback mechanism to restrain the population growth of humans from becoming too great (and other species, since it appears to be quite common), in that a small percentage of adults will not produce offspring but will contribute to the overall resources of any group. Doesn't seem to be working though, given the population explosion in recent times, such that perhaps we need more homosexuals within the population. :oops: But then the same thing could be said about wars - we need more of these. :eek:

    786px-Human_population_since_1800.png


    Not much to do with homophobia though. :oops:
     
    #10 Mock Turtle, Aug 13, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
  11. Power Stone

    Power Stone Unknown Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2019
    Messages:
    1,908
    Ratings:
    +509
    I'm talking 1 million years ago
     
  12. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,770
    Ratings:
    +1,594
    Religion:
    Atheist/non-religious
    There never was any hominid species that weren't living in tribal bands.

    PS: You can track mutation variances and spread, amongst other things, to know how a population reproduced.
     
  13. Power Stone

    Power Stone Unknown Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2019
    Messages:
    1,908
    Ratings:
    +509
    So genetics can tell what I suggested is false
     
  14. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,091
    Ratings:
    +2,384
    Religion:
    None
    Of course it isn't that simple. It isn't as simple as you'd like it to be either.

    Throughout human history there have been a massive number and range of societies, communities and disparate groupings of people and each would have had their own sets of social practices, rules and laws, many of which would relate to sexual and romantic behaviour and relationships, directly or indirectly. In many cases we don't (and likely never will) have enough information to know what those were.

    What is true, and what I think the people you mention were referring to, is the long dominance of political Christianity throughout Europe and the impact that has had on social and legal attitudes towards homosexuality over those years, both in Europe and the wider areas European culture has impacted via exploration and colonisation.

    That is a somewhat limited view point, in both time and place (something we can all be guilty of) but it doesn't make it invalid for what it is. It is more an issue of theocracy and forms of dictatorship more generally than something specific about Christianity though. As they say, "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".
     
  15. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2019
    Messages:
    1,770
    Ratings:
    +1,594
    Religion:
    Atheist/non-religious
    Indeed. There is no sign for homonid to have a high tendency to form harems and there isn't any genetic known markers for homophobia or even for high conventionalism either. At best the link would epigenetic. The fact that people can get over homophobia rather easily is a definite proof that there is very little genetical root to it. You can't change you gene or to their expression, but you can overcome fear and prejudices. The best you could find a genetical cause for is a predisposition for high anxiety that could express itself in xenophobia which could express itself in homophobia if all the necessary components are there.
     
    #15 epronovost, Aug 13, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    24,885
    Ratings:
    +19,241
    Religion:
    None
    And another one.

    I repeat,i have posted several scientific papers on homophobia throughout history, it seems you ignore them to promote your own hobby horse.

    Speculation to free your own particular brand of religion of the homophobic label wont change the evidence.

    Oh and we did not evolve from monkeys despite your monkeymen slight. You would be more accurate with apemen or even more on the ball with ape like men
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    826
    Ratings:
    +288
    Religion:
    Catholic
    What I noticed is, male dogs who are not fixed (by man), are less tolerant of gay play. While dogs that are fixed (by man) are more tolerant. A bunch of neutered males in a dog park have lost their natural instinct along with their testicles. While males that are intact have a more competitive instinct for procreation.

    Homosexual analogies in male animals is typically done for dominance. Apes do this to define pecking order. This, if done to excess would create fear in the other males. A connection to this predictor and dominance behavior may have create the fear or phobia.

    In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, groups of gay men would gang rape anything that would move. This would generate fear or phobia. Ironically, leather, chains and shackles which are characteristic of dominance and submission is the uniform of choice for gays. Gay behavior started the phobia, when some human males became fixed and unnatural somehow due to culture.

    In modern times, prisons can cause a type of neutering in the natural expression of sexual instinct. Then sex becomes misdirected and aggressive. This creates phobia in the natural males. Once the neutering is over; out of prison, natural instinct often returns. So one may ask, what is the modern social prison for gays that neutered them? This same social prison may be setting the background of fear or phobia.
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    10,678
    Ratings:
    +3,088
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    saying an act is wrong doesn't mean one is homophobic. No more that if someone is going 85 mph on a 70 mph highway makes me a speedophobic just because I think it is wrong.

    I deal with all types of situations - but in none of the cases have I acquired a phobia.
     
  19. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,679
    Ratings:
    +2,047
    Religion:
    Catholic
    I don't believe this represents true homosexuality, but power over another, as most will return to heterosexual act when released and are back in a natural environment. I think much the same could be said for all male or all female institutions.
     
  20. Power Stone

    Power Stone Unknown Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2019
    Messages:
    1,908
    Ratings:
    +509
    Yeah I know there's not enough information. Do you think what I suggested was likely among a lot of the groups?
     
Loading...