Opinion on Wal-Mart to pull of of Washington D.C.

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I know. Thats why I said that it wasn't Walmart specifically that I disliked. Its the whole process. It gets back to the fundamental thing that we will disagree on. You think that there are only poor because they are lazy or something similar. I think that the game of capitalism is rigged in America. Walmart is the perfect embodiment of the problem of overly cheap labor and cheap production prices. Every company that does this I feel is going to eventually harm us. Walmart is especially bad for our economy because it destroys the local economies and is the number 1 reason mom and pop stores are on the endangered species list. Its not that they simply refuse to compete with walmart but that they can't. They don't have the ability to outsource the way large corporations do. And this is exactly why we live in feudalism now. I used to say that we were headed towards a neo-feudalistic society but I honestly think we are in there now.

It's not Walmart's fault if smaller businesses can't compete. A good idea is a good idea. I can't understand why people hate other people for being too successful. It's not as if Walmart was never a small business. They've just accomplished the American dream.
I wouldn't say smaller businesses don't have the ability to outsource. Outsourcing is actually easier (and a lot cheaper) than hiring domestically. One needs only to go through the proper channels. However, I do agree that keeping jobs in the US would be better for the economy and the country as a whole (more jobs, more money). It would also cause may things to cost a lot more than they currently do, and those same poor people you're fighting for (even though there would be less of them) will be at even more of a disadvantage. Somebody has to lose no matter what happens. Even Socialist countries have a lower class (most of the time their middle classes live like our lower class).

I would rather have a regulated capitalism than socialism. But walmart actually has contributed to our "socialist state". They and companies like it are the reason why we have so many poor and why wages haven't gone up. People aren't simply ball-less as you seem to imply. We haven't lost the ability to work hard. The game is different.

I do agree with regulation in the form of higher taxes for rich people and large corporations. That's only fair. I don't, however, believe the government has any place in private businesses outside of tax collection.
We are definitely far from a Socialist state. Poverty doesn't equate to Socialism, and our lower class has a better chance for success than poor people in Socialist states. I point to Cuba as an example. Also, Walmart gives jobs to many people who otherwise wouldn't have jobs, such as the elderly and handicapped/retarded people. As for the "game"; you either have to change with it or lose. I'm not saying things are perfect, but moping about your problems doesn't help anything.

We also had better regulation that helped maintain this good economy.

I agree that the Bush tax breaks for the upper class unfairly shifted the burden on to the middle class. But again, when the game changes you have to adapt to survive. Until the breaks are repealed, we all have to nut up.

Walmart as well as every other massive corporation has increased dramatically in the last 13 years since Clinton.

That's capitalism at work. I personally think it's great for them.

I cannot disagree with you more in the context in which you use this. To quote bill Maher in a meme that was used already earlier in this thread "If hard work equaled success then the country would be run by Mexicans with leaf blowers."
I have already laid out why it is different than what you say.

I've already decided it's pointless to try and turn you around on this point.
On a side note, landscaping is actually a pretty lucrative industry; those Mexicans make more than you think (except illegals, who get low pay on principle). I know a guy just a couple years older than me that started a landscaping business out of high school and now owns a house bigger than my parents', who each work two jobs.

I'm great that you have had some lucky breaks and good luck with your Lawyer career and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. But don't assume that your success story is the same as every other person who encounters hardships.

Thanks. I would hardly call it a "success story" though, as I have yet to succeed. Right now I'm working just as hard as the Mexicans with the leaf blowers lol. I've had my share of hardships and am still strapped for cash sometimes; the difference is that I seek to do something about it myself rather than complaining that I get no help.

Because its not and these problems are real. Do you think the entire nation of China, India, and Pakistan are all just self creating victims?

Bad examples; each of those countries have a completely different economic approach than we do. If anything, China, India, and Pakistan are a testament to how great it is to be American and have the system we do. A large number of immigrants from those countries also do really well here (obviously not all of them, but that goes without saying), and hate to hear people complain about how hard it is here.

Actually it can. The reason why our recession recovery is slow is because we have a massively weak middle class. An overwhelming majority of money is concentrated in the upper divisions of our society and the middle and lower class don't have the purchasing power to drive the economy. Our economy has ALWAYS been driven by the middle class and at no time has that not been true. If we calculate with inflation the middle class is poorer now than it has been since before the 70's. The first time we had a massive recession we were able to bounce back because we had a domino effect.

I agree, but again the main issues are unfair taxation and fractional reserve banking.

For us to have the kind of world dominating economy we once had we need to accept that things must be slightly more expensive and American made and those making it must make a living wage to pump money back into the economy.

Yes, we could use more domestic job growth, and cutting down on outsourcing would achieve that. As I said earlier, that would drop the quality of life for the lower class even lower, but somebody has to lose, and the growth of the middle class would significantly balance the scales. This, however, doesn't mean we have to rid ourselves of large corporations completely.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

It's not Walmart's fault if smaller businesses can't compete. A good idea is a good idea. I can't understand why people hate other people for being too successful. It's not as if Walmart was never a small business. They've just accomplished the American dream.
I wouldn't say smaller businesses don't have the ability to outsource. Outsourcing is actually easier (and a lot cheaper) than hiring domestically. One needs only to go through the proper channels. However, I do agree that keeping jobs in the US would be better for the economy and the country as a whole (more jobs, more money). It would also cause may things to cost a lot more than they currently do, and those same poor people you're fighting for (even though there would be less of them) will be at even more of a disadvantage. Somebody has to lose no matter what happens. Even Socialist countries have a lower class (most of the time their middle classes live like our lower class).

I have not disagreed with anything yet. I'm saying we're heading for a cliff. It is bad for what will happen. Its not that walmart has done anything "wrong" or "illegal". And I don't hate on them for having money or being successful. I'm saying they are bad for the economy. By their very essence they are a cancer for successful equal opportunity capitalism. I don't advocate socialism but sprinkled socialism with a well regulated capitalism and I ask you as one debater to another do not claim that I am simply hating on the rich.

I do agree with regulation in the form of higher taxes for rich people and large corporations. That's only fair. I don't, however, believe the government has any place in private businesses outside of tax collection.
We are definitely far from a Socialist state. Poverty doesn't equate to Socialism, and our lower class has a better chance for success than poor people in Socialist states. I point to Cuba as an example. Also, Walmart gives jobs to many people who otherwise wouldn't have jobs, such as the elderly and handicapped/retarded people. As for the "game"; you either have to change with it or lose. I'm not saying things are perfect, but moping about your problems doesn't help anything.

I have done 0 moping. I am stating the fact that Walmart is terrible for economies. The continuation of walmart and corporations that utilize similar techniques will end in feudalism. Its what will happen.

I agree that the Bush tax breaks for the upper class unfairly shifted the burden on to the middle class. But again, when the game changes you have to adapt to survive. Until the breaks are repealed, we all have to nut up.

Well 97% of us will have to nut up.

That's capitalism at work. I personally think it's great for them.

Its capitalism at work evolving into feudalism. Though I suppose the end version of all capitalism is feudalism.

Thanks. I would hardly call it a "success story" though, as I have yet to succeed. Right now I'm working just as hard as the Mexicans with the leaf blowers lol. I've had my share of hardships and am still strapped for cash sometimes; the difference is that I seek to do something about it myself rather than complaining that I get no help.

I want to stop you right here. I am not complaining about a lack of socialism or "help". I am advocating the change in the way we as consumers spend our money. We need to look at what will help us long term not short term.

Bad examples; each of those countries have a completely different economic approach than we do. If anything, China, India, and Pakistan are a testament to how great it is to be American and have the system we do. A large number of immigrants from those countries also do really well here (obviously not all of them, but that goes without saying), and hate to hear people complain about how hard it is here.

Those are perfect examples for your point that poor people are poor because they are lazy or the like. I would like a link to me saying that America was worse than any of those places.

I agree, but again the main issues are unfair taxation and fractional reserve banking.

and low wages. Thats all I have to add.

Yes, we could use more domestic job growth, and cutting down on outsourcing would achieve that. As I said earlier, that would drop the quality of life for the lower class even lower, but somebody has to lose, and the growth of the middle class would significantly balance the scales. This, however, doesn't mean we have to rid ourselves of large corporations completely.

If the middle class looses everyone looses. I think that if someone has to loose it should be only a few people rather than the vast majority of America. And I don't advocate ridding ourselves of large corporations. I'm saying lets not roll over and take it up the tailpipe when they screw us.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I just want to clarify; when I use the word "you", I'm not referring to you specifically; I'm speaking collectively. You've been nothing but civil and I'm not trying to offend you.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I understand. You have been civil as well and I enjoy our debates. I often use the world "you" as well when I mean "your position or the cumulative group that argue your position".

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I have not disagreed with anything yet. I'm saying we're heading for a cliff. It is bad for what will happen. Its not that walmart has done anything "wrong" or "illegal". And I don't hate on them for having money or being successful. I'm saying they are bad for the economy. By their very essence they are a cancer for successful equal opportunity capitalism. I don't advocate socialism but sprinkled socialism with a well regulated capitalism and I ask you as one debater to another do not claim that I am simply hating on the rich.

Walmart's value to the economy is debatable. For one, they do sell many American-made products (which isn't to say there aren't just as many if not more imports in stock). Also, they employ elderly and disabled people, teenagers, new immigrants, general weirdos that get passed up for most other jobs, etc. They're good business for tradesmen who specialize in HVAC, industrial cleaning, plumbing, electric, etc. A huge building like a Walmart is a hefty contract, and usually a long-lasting one. They sell generic pharmaceuticals that are more affordable for people who can't afford the obviously inflated price of their medicines, which frees up more money to be spent elsewhere. They offer lower-interest payday advance loans. They almost single-handedly keep Winchester in business. They pay big money to graphic design and advertising contractors. I could keep going, but I think I've made my point; it can be argued that they are not such an evil corporation after all. Also, in 2012, Walmart donated more than $1 billion to American charities and $82.2 million in international aid.

Well 97% of us will have to nut up.

To be in that 3% is what America's all about.

Its capitalism at work evolving into feudalism. Though I suppose the end version of all capitalism is feudalism.

All roads lead to feudalism of some sort. It's in our nature to split into factions.

Those are perfect examples for your point that poor people are poor because they are lazy or the like. I would like a link to me saying that America was worse than any of those places.

I never implied (at least, I didn't mean to) that you said America was worse, I'm just saying these countries are run very differently, economically speaking. People literally don't have the same opportunity for advancement they can get in the US. Their best shot at success is to move here. When I talk about lack of ambition to get ahead, I'm referring to people here in the US, where I know there is ample opportunity if people are just willing to take it. Something you'll hear from a lot of immigrants to this country is "I don't know why you guys think you have it so bad". For example, we're in a fit about 7% unemployment, while Spain is currently at 24.6%. A Spaniard would jump at an opportunity to be employed in the US right now; he'd clean toilets for minimum wage and whistle while he's doing it.

and low wages. Thats all I have to add.

I'm of the opinion that low wages are the fault of the people rather than the corporations. I know we disagree on this (very much so lol), but I see it how I see it.

If the middle class looses everyone looses. I think that if someone has to loose it should be only a few people rather than the vast majority of America. And I don't advocate ridding ourselves of large corporations. I'm saying lets not roll over and take it up the tailpipe when they screw us.

I agree with you 100%. I'm all for trampling the little people for the good of the workers who will drive the economy. As far as the corporations, they can only screw us as much as we let them. The consumer and the worker have more power than they get credit for.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Walmart's value to the economy is debatable. For one, they do sell many American-made products (which isn't to say there aren't just as many if not more imports in stock). Also, they employ elderly and disabled people, teenagers, new immigrants, general weirdos that get passed up for most other jobs, etc. They're good business for tradesmen who specialize in HVAC, industrial cleaning, plumbing, electric, etc. A huge building like a Walmart is a hefty contract, and usually a long-lasting one. They sell generic pharmaceuticals that are more affordable for people who can't afford the obviously inflated price of their medicines, which frees up more money to be spent elsewhere. They offer lower-interest payday advance loans. They almost single-handedly keep Winchester in business. They pay big money to graphic design and advertising contractors. I could keep going, but I think I've made my point; it can be argued that they are not such an evil corporation after all. Also, in 2012, Walmart donated more than $1 billion to American charities and $82.2 million in international aid.

While true I have stated that its not specifically walmart that I am angry with. Having a few walmarts are good for the economy. Having a walmart every town replaces the healthy economy with something I don't even consider to be capitalism. At least not at the local level. I'll have to go into massive detail later about why large corporations and chain stores are bad for any capitalism.

To be in that 3% is what America's all about.

That is actually a common misunderstanding. The "American Dream" was originally the idea that one could work a decent job where your hard work was rewarded and make enough to own a decent house in the suburbs or wherever you wanted to live with a yard, 2 kinds, a dog. The origins of the American dream was around the early 40's and 50's when appliances began appearing in most homes. It was the birth of our consumer society and it was created as a way to stimulate the middle class to increase purchasing power. It was like a tax free stimulus package. So its actually the opposite of trying to be in the top 3%. In fact up untill recently this massive gap was non-existant.

All roads lead to feudalism of some sort. It's in our nature to split into factions.

I think it can be subverted.

I never implied (at least, I didn't mean to) that you said America was worse, I'm just saying these countries are run very differently, economically speaking. People literally don't have the same opportunity for advancement they can get in the US. Their best shot at success is to move here. When I talk about lack of ambition to get ahead, I'm referring to people here in the US, where I know there is ample opportunity if people are just willing to take it. Something you'll hear from a lot of immigrants to this country is "I don't know why you guys think you have it so bad". For example, we're in a fit about 7% unemployment, while Spain is currently at 24.6%. A Spaniard would jump at an opportunity to be employed in the US right now; he'd clean toilets for minimum wage and whistle while he's doing it.

As true as that is it doesn't counter the points I was making. In spain they don't have the massive problem of oversized corporations taking over the economy. Their economic situation is totally different than ours.

I'm of the opinion that low wages are the fault of the people rather than the corporations. I know we disagree on this (very much so lol), but I see it how I see it.

And we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I agree with you 100%. I'm all for trampling the little people for the good of the workers who will drive the economy. As far as the corporations, they can only screw us as much as we let them. The consumer and the worker have more power than they get credit for.

Trampling of the big people you mean?

I agree. I don't advocate government action. I advocate informing the public sector and consumors of the power they have and what needs to be done. I am asking people to stop going to walmart. Go to mom and pop shops. "Think Global buy local" was a common slogan a few years back. It means that for a porpper global economy (or American economy) to work you need to have a large number of small businesses rather than a few large ones. Economically this works far better. Its why India is booming with sucess right now despite certain fallbacks.

 

[tytlyf]

How someone can favor a large corporation coming into their town and tearing apart the American dream is beyond me.

 

[DallasApple]

Walmart SUCKS! And my father had an account with them...(got the account) and I wont say what company.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

That movie just reinforced what I said. Walmart has more to offer in one place than these small businesses do, so more people shop there. Your complaint is that they're "too good" of a business... If other businesses want to stay open, they have to offer good competition. That's how capitalism works; you either step up or shut up.

I understand your premise, but the unintended consequences of having too many eggs in one basket, have been proven time and time again. I'm not against low prices. Just the means in which those companies obtain those commodities.

Walmart (the sprinter in this case) isn't "kicking" anyone. They just keep winning races, and obviously the losers are going to be bitter.

Lance Armstrong one many races, but at what cost?