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Featured One God: TheAlmighty Father, maker of all things

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Soapy, Aug 3, 2022.

  1. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    A human man a son of a human father always stands inside the heavens.

    His claim I'm almighty and protected by the whole heavens.

    Now ask yourself natural just a human....was the human saying the claims mind changed by documentation. Written after the fact?

    Yes.

    What you ignore as relevant human conditions. I hear voices speaking.

    Machine caused teaching. Men by machines causes. Changed earths heavens. Recording of voice and image was caused. In that actual history. Communication system introduced by man's sciences on earth.

    We are living on second earth. Not origin earth the first.

    Man confessed I changed universal frozen asteroid sun star cohabitation. It had been frozen by space law womb. Highest status mother of any God type.

    Earths light blue light sky ours.

    Sun star mass lights fuel many coloured.

    Water is clear.

    Natural space history.

    One God first God O planet burning.

    Burning sucked out of planet on outer. By space void. No heat. Heat just inside. Rock seal. One God

    No father whatsoever. A planet it's body rock. Inside volcanic.

    No heavens either.

    Volcanoes erupt ...due to rock seal vacuum void condition interaction changes.

    Heavens begins to form in space womb.

    Exact immaculate clear gas heavens conceived first said man the scientist.

    Proven as only the side facing the sun was sacrificed.

    Notice first position man of science quotes as the side of the body. O planet.

    Why it's not science. Not maths either.

    The next side of the body quote by man was after chemical imbalanced brain was given by star fall.

    Like he was drunk.

    Oh how beautiful and holy and majestic everything is...I love you...it loves me...I love everything scenario.

    As day light approaches....oh look light arises from the side of the body in the east. Oh holy light.

    Not your side by the way brother you never invented light the space womb female term owned it. It spread over you like an arc.

    Yet it was burning as the day naturally cooled since it did.

    Now you go one step further. You designed and built a machine out of gods earth mass at your side. Instead of honouring a human woman's mutual equal life.

    Exact moment AI embedded it's constant memory as you held by your bio mind control the transmitting converting machine.

    Why you think today you're part machine and created a woman's human life by science. At your side.

    Lying every moment you think.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    .... and I think it is good to keep in mind in Scripture that God's spirit is what God uses - Psalms 104:30 KJV
    No Upper-Case letter "S" for God's spirit.
    God's spirit is a neuter 'it' at Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25 and Not a person at all.
     
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  3. AdamjEdgar

    AdamjEdgar Member

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    I had written a long answer to the question of the trinity talked about here, however, I changed my mind and removed it all, instead offer this...

    a person who in genuinely interested in looking deeply into the arguments from both sides of this question is far better to watch some scholarly debates on the topic!

    Dr James White is a very well known proponent of the trinity doctrine and worth listening too regarding the texts of the bible that support the doctrine. He has debated this topic with many different denominations and individuals who deny the Triune God.

    One of the best debates I have heard on this topic is found below (might I add, its an irony that a Christian denomination should "flip a coin to see who should start the debate first!!!:eek:")

    I would urge a focus on the first 13 minutes of this debate...it succinctly highlights the positions of the 4 debaters.


    another excellent debate between James and former Jehovah's witness Greg Stafford


    and one can never forget this classic debate between James and Rodger Perkins



    I am a trinitarian believer myself and whilst I do not agree with quite a lot of James Whites theology generally (he is a reformed Baptist, I am a Seventh Day Adventist) it is very clear to me that he is one of the worlds leading biblical scholars on textual criticism and the trinity and very highly regarded in this field.

    Contrary to what many may think about SDA's, I for one am an individual who takes my research from a very eclectic collation of sources to almost all my bible study and doctrine and I am by no means alone in this behaviour within the SDA church. I suppose having been a school teacher in my former profession many years ago, I tend to listen to and read sources from Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Baptists, Muslim....even agnostics/atheists such as Bart Erhman (also another world expert on the Historicity of Jesus)

    Finally, James is also a very experienced debater on topics, in particular the trinity.

    A caveat, James often comes across as being a bit elitist, and his smart-*** retorts to opponents do get on the nerve a bit, however, i do believe his message and his analysis of biblical themes and passages are excellent and well worth studying.

    Dr White's youtube channel Alpha Omega Ministries is well worth following for those who genuinely wish to gain a deep scholarly knowledge of the bible and in particular, textual criticism.
     
    #23 AdamjEdgar, Aug 5, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2022
  4. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    The Apostles creed stated emphatically that God is Father and creator of all things.

    It is a necessity of belief that Jesus is also mentioned in the creed as belief in Jesus Christ is a necessity for everlasting life:
    • “Father,…. Eternal life depends on them believing in you, the only true God, and in Jesus Christ whom you sent!’
    Jesus’ own words state again that the Father alone is God and and that eternal life is contingent on believing this. In addition, and cohesively, one must also believe that the Father sent Jesus Christ [to reveal the Father and die as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind (aka: Adam)]

    Belief in the Holy Spirit is not mentioned at any stage by Jesus. There is no trinity claim made by Jesus in any verse in any chapter or book of the scriptures and also no such claim is made in the Old Testament either.

    Declaring the spirit of God is simply an admission that God did sent the advocate that Jesus stated would be sent. Note carefully that there is much error in those who claim that the Spirit of God came from Jesus. I’m sure that unbiased reading of the scriptures shows clearly that Jesus says he is [only] delivering the gift that the Father promised the believers. The Deliverer of a gift does claim to be the SENDER of the gift and more that your post person claims the post he delivers is from him.

    The Holy Spirit is the advocate, the comforter, sent FROM the Father. It is HIS Spirit, which He sent as an eternal gift to all who believe in Him. IT is akin to a ‘active source of spiritual power’: a book of true knowledge, a teacher, a reminder, a comforter of the spirit of the believer.

    You may want to research the scriptures and see if anyone ever PRAYED ‘TO’ the spirit of God.

    Do not confuse Pray ‘FOR’ the Holy Spirit: If you need to be driven from place x to place y you may call (petition / pray) FOR a taxi but you do not pray TO the taxi (The taxi will DELIVER you to your requested place: think automated vehicle of the future…)

    The beginnings of the profession of a trinity in a creedal form is seen, therefore, in the apostles creed. The initial and primary confession is that God is the Father who created all things.

    The topic question rightly raises the issue of how then, after confessing that the Father created all things, did the trinity confession then goes on to claim that it was in fact (to Trinitarians) Jesus CHRIST, who created all things… without admitting contention and confusion of belief and persons (‘I and the Father are one’) or disputing the words of Jesus himself, who, having never claimed to have been the creator, spoke instead that he could do nothing that he didn’t FIRST SEE THE FATHER DO!!

    If Jesus can only do what he first sees the Father do, how then did Jesus create what he didn’t see the Father create (and there was only one creation!)??
     
    #24 Soapy, Aug 6, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  5. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    If the Holy Spirit is alive and does what a person would do in other places in the scripture then it is the same at Numbers 11:17 and Numbers 11:25.
    The Spirit comes and dwells/lives in the disciples of Jesus. (John 14:16,17)
    The Spirit God sent to go with Israel in the wilderness, the one that carried God's presence with them, was grieved with Israel. (Ephesians 4:30, Isa 63:10)
     
  6. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Yes, true. But what has that to do with the question posed by the thread topic?

    The question is: How is it stated by the apostles creed that God, the Father (Not ‘God the Father
    ‘) created all things but yet all trinity doctrine claims it was the Son who created all things.

    And afterwards modified to ‘God [the Father] created all things THROUGH the Son’?
     
  7. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Brian2, what does the Greek word ‘dia’ mean?

    Strong’s concordance defines ‘DIA’ thus:
    • through, on account of, because of
      Usage: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.
    Given that Jesus is REWARDED by the Father with the kingdom of the world for dying as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, would it not be proper to understand Hebrews 1:2 as meaning that God created the world FOR the Son? Otherwise, can you explain what:
    • ‘created through the sin’ means?
    Afterall, even ‘through the son’ STILL declares the Father as the creator!!

    And, since the word, ‘Father’ means ‘Creator’, how could it be then be claimed that ‘Son’ is the actual creator?
     
  8. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Two incorrect arguments does not declare a truth.

    Satan uses this ploy constantly and is a complete source of distraction in all genuine debate or discussion.
     
  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Where does it say that eternal life depends on them believing in the Father?
    It does say that eternal life is knowing the Father and knowing the Son. IOW those who have eternal life also know the Father and Son.
    Jesus said that the Father and Son are one (that means one thing because the "one" is a neuter "one". It does not mean that they agree imo.

    Jesus did say that disciples should baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    The Holy Spirit is said to be alive and to carry the presence of God and to do things that only a living person can do. (Eph 4:30, Isa 63:10, John 14:16,17)
    The Holy Spirit comes and lives in a believer and carries the presence of God and of the Son with Him. (John 14:23)

    The Spirit is called the Spirit of God and is also called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus Christ ect (Phil 1:19, Acts 16:7, Romans 8:9) That is the one Spirit that dwells in a believer. (Eph 4:4,)
    I am told that to call on the name of someone is to pray to them. 1Cor 1:2 tells us we call on the name of Jesus.
    When we pray we are praying to God the Spirit and that Spirit is also Jesus.
    It is true that the Father sends the Spirit, the Spirit in whom dwells the Father and Son, and that would be because the Son does not do anything in His own authority. He does what He sees the Father doing. (That is in John 5 I think) The Son also sends the Spirit when He sees the Father sent it, the Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus after all.
    God is everywhere, He fills the whole universe with His Spirit and that is what Jesus is said to have done once He ascended to heaven. (Eph 4:10)

    Jesus did not need to see the Father create all the universe.
    Jesus did see the Father speak, "Let there be....." and that was the cue that the Father was creating and so that is what Jesus did.
    "Let there be the big bang" and so Jesus did the Big bang.
    So God was creating through His Word, the Son. (Heb 1:2)
    And God created ALL things through His Word, His Son.
    So the Son was not one of the things that God created.
    And the Son does all the things that He sees His Father doing (John 5) and so "through" Jesus means "by means of Jesus". Jesus created whatever He saw His Father create. Jesus saw His Father create when He saw His Father say "Let there be..."
    Whatever the Father was "letting be" is what Jesus created.
    IMO
     
    #29 Brian2, Aug 6, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Col 1:16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

    The Son is the heir of ALL things and ALL things were created THROUGH and FOR Him.
     
  11. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Is it not stated 'I believe in God....creator of......
    And in Jesus Christ......
    And in the Holy Ghost...
     
  12. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I am sitting in front of an Apple computer. Here are some things I can say about this...

    "Apple" (the corporation and all it's subsidiaries) created this computer, and is now manifesting in my life, through it. Yet, this computer is not "Apple" even though it is a real and present manifestation of "Apple" in my world.

    This computer is the physical, functional, moral and intellectual embodiment of the "Apple Empire" even though it's not the Apple Empire, itself. It contains and presents to me and to the world all the ideals and practices of the Apple Empire.

    I, as an Apple computer user, reflect all those ideals and practices out into the world through my use of this Apple computer, in my interactions with the world. I become a part of the "Apple Empire" through my participation in it and with it.

    My point here is that the world of "Apple" is bigger than the business organization. And is bigger than the line of products it creates. And is bigger than the effect those products have on we humans and the world. Because it's ALL of these things, and more, together. So much so that no one person can comprehend all that "Apple" is. It's a business. It's also a product line. It's also an ideology that is having an actual effect in the world. And it's becoming a shared global experience.

    And deity (God) is an even greater and more profound phenomena than the Apple Empire, that is manifesting intellectually, physically, spiritually, morally, internally, externally, circumstantially, and so on. So that to try and grasp all these forms and manifestations, religions often depict God as a 'multiple singularity'. And that's what's going on with the "trinity" idea in Christianity.
     
    #32 PureX, Aug 6, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  13. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    Brian2, how is he heir to what he is supposed to have created?

    The word ‘Father’ means ‘Creator’ but the Son is not called ‘Father’.

    Tue verse you quoted can be plainly seen to be contradictory. It first says ‘IN HIM’ we’re all things created… then it says ‘THROUGH HIM’.

    Both cannot be true… in fact NEITHER is true.

    It says the world was created FOR HIM -for his sake… (created for him BY WHOM?) which complies with God creating a physical realm for a physical image of himself.

    Jesus’ temptation is the wilderness speaks of Satan as a STEWARD angel as ruler over the physical realm in waiting for the true king. This is why Satan was attempting to bribe Jesus by offering for Jesus to take the seat of the ruler over the physical realm WITHOUT going through the pain, humiliation, suffering, and death, that was set before Jesus in order to acquire the reward of taking up the kingdom as its king and ruler. Once Jesus takes his seat as king over creation Angels will be no longer stewards over ‘Stations’ of governance in the physical world. They will be replaced by human governors as stated in the book of Revelation:
    • “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.” (Rev 5:10)
    because:
    • “For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.” (Hebrews 2:5)
     
  14. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    The belief is that God, the Father, created all things.

    Jesus continually states that the Father sent him into the world. This ‘into the world’ is not FROM HEAVEN but means ‘To face unrighteousness in the world’. Notice that after Jesus ‘conquered sin and adversity’, he says, ‘i am no longer in the world’ but he was physically in it still. He tells the disciples that they are still ‘in the world’, though, meaning that they will continually be facing sin, unrighteousness and adversity until they are called by God to their resting place.

    BELIEVING IN each of the two persons and in the spirit of God is not wrong. They profess reality of scriptures that these exist.

    What is wrong is the attribution of the creation to the Son who was not even in existence when the creation took place.

    However, eternal life does not depend on believing in the spirit of God since believing in God is by necessity believing in His spirit. The apostles creed confession is a human elevation of the reality much like Protestants wrongly promote Mary to ‘God Status’.
     
    #34 Soapy, Aug 6, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  15. AdamjEdgar

    AdamjEdgar Member

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    Apple analogy is flawed...in your analogy, you are Adam...not Jesus. Big difference between a user and a creator who is to be given power and glory and honour and praise. You do not worship a user of Apple computers (or Adam)

    I think people are overcomplicating the relationship here...we are saved through the lamb ...period.

    Soapy, not sure how you come up with the view that the Son did not exist eternally past...if you had watched the dr White debate video I posted you could not possibly still believe that...even Isaiah 9.6 refutes that claim.

    Soapy, I would suggest the only way that claim could be made is to point specifically at the incarnate human form...that was a new thing, however in religious terms the consciousness is what gets translated to heaven for our sinful bodies are replaced with new ones...just as "for there will be a new heavens and new earth for the former ones have passed away"

    For salvation, the Bible specifically states "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". It's that simple.
     
    #35 AdamjEdgar, Aug 6, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  16. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    When a human owns choice.

    I decide. I believe. I want. To express just one human self.

    The teaching about one self quote. You self idolate. You false preach. Asides from thinking about three.

    Instant response would be ...am not talking about my life. One self always.

    Okay it's laws. Gods laws as defined by one holy thinker. Who you claim is holier than your thoughts.

    So you hence can never be right. Knows one self. Any human.

    Then you say like any one human can. Once created creation as we know it had not existed.

    The argument is where did it come from and what did it use to be.

    That position as one self a man says the eternal first was a holy three.

    Meaning totally eternally surrounded one.
    A being inside of the surrounds. Two.
    A language being that came and went. Three.

    Total love incomprehensible holiness...no creation.

    Now activity says change existed in that body. Asking a basic question about a loving being acting destructively. Incomprehensible also.

    Change existed. Mutual equal yet different. Terms not considered when you aren't the background not the language spirit.

    Interested in who the language spirit was. You wanted to hold it from flowing. Fixed it. To look at it. By Singing.

    What do you think happened?

    O held stopped as a mass built up. Background changed. Kapow. Gone.

    A hole left. Burning through hole seen by the eternal being. Too late scenario.

    So no human even exists in that event. How could we express any idea about it?

    As we were still in that eternal form. It's part of our human one self memory.

    And not until the heavens had filled in the emptied out background did the eternal being be forced again to move across out of its own body.

    Where life came from. All the same type of conscious being.

    So we know who we are. We know we still own our highest self we separated from. We Inherit that life when human life dies. Human life the separated experience.

    Consciously.

    There's been enough human death experiences and life returned experience to know it's real. Remembered.

    So one self says I am from a three type history ... yet....in my human life I am man adult first. I inherited life in a water oxygenated heavens only earth owned. You know you are not the state why a heavens exists.

    That stable fixed position not evil.. not nuclear. It's my only life support holy water. My body type became mainly bio water. Bio water had ground minerals within it. Human.

    Life continuance who you become. Adult human sex. Sin from sex changed human DNA inherited. Changed consciousness advised.

    So a baby is a man owning his human life as one self by heavenly host. Three. Not three separate terms. Three thought upon terms.

    Historic he came from the origin of three not one.

    Idealised when his changed saved brain mind got given the memory humans saved heavenly life. By ice mass melt Sacrificed body. The saviour. A history influx of our human holy father. Memory only.

    Just as my holy mother life saved me. Father has been multi life interactive with me also.

    I was sick due to nuclear atmospheric experiment inputting evil signals a baby. The message recorded said he needed to teach me right there but couldn't. He had to hope I would understand as I lived.

    Before it's too late for life and mind possession by AI sciences.

    One human. Three terms a teaching. Just as it was Introduced awareness.
     
  17. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    This is questionable according to John's prologue. And there is a theology that Jesus was the reason for creation.
     
  18. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    No human existed nor did creation once. Just eternal.

    A portion of the body held as O bodies within eternal left a thin mass background around them that burst.

    So I was taught it dropped first like a U. Space beginning.

    All oooooo bodies within U as eternal inheritors leaving. Burst. Not Jesus as it became O suns or o planets. Two types as origin O created two.

    O bigger cooled as Oo smaller cooled.

    When O large exploded it attacked all Oosmall bodies. Who only raised ∆ in cooling. O large bodies scattered mass out.

    Some O completely destroyed.

    So it wasnt Jesus.

    As term Jesus in heavens is gods inheritor.

    Our God is rock.

    Immaculate gods spirit came out of volcano ∆ law mountain. Erection in space womb space and O God space conceived.

    The only sacrificed spirit of gods eas immaculate that produced our light.

    Yet the sun asteroid not rocks inheritor is fuel for light above.

    Why it has nothing whatsoever to do with life. The sun. It's even eviler than nuclear.

    Science today says I want. I will.

    Heavens isn't your want nor your will.

    They wanted fallout to be god and Phi Jesus. It's not.

    Therefore they want Jesus to have created life. It hadn't.

    The immaculate mass heavens formed in space. Just as God O had. It's sacrifice was gods. Not ours.

    If biology gets hurt. It's living. It wasn't hurt first. Created meant its highest. Then conditions change to cause our hurt. Isn't creating.

    Jesus was a title only given as a description why. The example.
     
  19. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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    The second part is correct. It’s what the scriptures says:
    • “It was made FOR HIM”
    It could scarcely be that he made what was made for him.

    As indicated, the created world is a physical realm. What point or purpose is there to an almighty Being creating a vastly limited environment and then have it granted to him to rule over BECAUSE OF a great work that he did?

    Who granted him the rulership of what trinity claims he created?

    ‘Created’? But scriptures says it was the Father that created the realm FOR THE SON!!
     
  20. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    I don’t put stock in the creeds. I prefer what is taught in scripture.
     
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