One atheist’s idea on how to prevent evil

[Shad]

Nice try, but Baha'is do not believe that everything in the Bible is literally true.

Besides that, bandwagoning on the Abrahamic traditions is the worst way to gain credibility.

Except that is what your religion did bandwagon.

Noah's flood? Exodus?

So your religion cherry picks. That is not something new.

 

[wellwisher]

I have an atheist poster on my forum who says it is god’s fault there is evil because god, if he exists, makes evil choices available to humans.

Atheist: Any being who would make evil choices available would be an evil being. Therefore, if god exists, god is to blame for evil, not humans.

He says that god could arrange it so only good choices are available for people to make and that would prevent evil.

So I asked him to explain precisely how God could make only good choices available to humans and I asked him to explain HOW this would play out in the real world we live in. Below is his answer:

Atheist: Try having a real omnipotent god who could see to that.

As you can see he could not answer HOW a real omnipotent God could make only good choices available to humans.
I have asked him three or four times and still no answer.

How could an omnipotent God make only good choices available to humans? Any ideas?

There is a major flaw in your logic. Consider the US tax code. There are 70,000 pages of laws and rules that were all created by man. This code was not given by Divine revelation near a burning bush, nor is it the same in all countries. It is subjective law, created by man, for their own benefit and for the benefit of their donors. Attached to this code is all forms of loopholes and cheating that only applies to the few.

God's laws is very limited. They are essentially the 10 Commandments. This law was not designed for lawyers to game the system, but made easy for individuals to follow. However, most of the ten Commandments have been over ridden by the humans called Atheists, who then blame God for the evil in the world. As an atheist human, how many of God ten commandments do you think need to be overridden? One evil appears, that can be traced to these overridden ten commandants, how many atheists will then blame God?

Most of the evil of the world is connected to human laws and is therefore manmade evil. Consider the marijuana prohibition over the past 100 years. This was not a revelation from God. Most of the evil, in the classic sense, due to the prohibition, was done by the state, because humans subjectively defined this as good. This example by leadership messes up the mind of people, and allows classic evil to persist.

Jesus traced the source of all evil to law. Law defines evil. If you do away with the law, there is no longer any sin. Sin is only imputed where there is a law. For example, in many states of the US, what used to be defined as evil by man; marijuana, is no linger evil, simply by repealing the law. It was never evil in the classic sense, until man defined it that way. Once they changed the human definition; repeal the law, the social sin and the evil disappeared. Tree of knowledge of good and evil is law.

Jesus understood this hypocrisy, where humans make law, that allows themselves to do evil, in the name of goodness. He did away with law and instead chose a doctrine of faith, grounded on the simple law set given by God. This path would minimize evil since it minimize the source of evil called law. But atheist man wanted to play god and stacked the deck with the laws of man designed to allow for evil in the name of good. Third world dictators create laws to maintain power, wth enforcement a way to intimidate the masses. Consider the collusion delusion. This was pure evil, since it was total deception for power. Yet to the Democrat atheists this was defined as good. This irrationality is how the mass mind gets twisted and evil persists in the world; ends justifies the means.

The ends justifies the means is the main sources of evil. People will do evil, in the classic sense, if they can subjectively justify the payoff being worth their action; more good for them than evil for them. This is due to atheism doing away with divine law which does not allow this philosophy. Classic law deals with the means before the ends. The collusion delusion would never started if they could not justify lying and cheating; thou hall not steal nor bear false witness. This would ended before it started. But if we assume ends; power, justifies the means, deception, then this is justified in the mind; law of man.

 

[SugarOcean]

He might know what is in the scriptures but he lends them no credence anymore, because he is an atheist.

Then that invalidates your entire introduction to that atheist to whom you referred and spoke on behalf of doesn't it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Noah's flood? Exodus?

So your religion cherry picks. That is not something new.

Call it what you want.
We just do not believe that all the stories in the Bible literally happened as written.
That is not cherry picking since we believe everything in the Bible has a spiritual significance.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is a major flaw in your logic. Consider the US tax code. There are 70,000 pages of laws and rules that were all created by man. This code was not given by Divine revelation near a burning bush, nor is it the same in all countries. It is subjective law, created by man, for their own benefit and for the benefit of their donors. Attached to this code is all forms of loopholes and cheating that only applies to the few.

God's laws is very limited. They are essentially the 10 Commandments. This law was not designed for lawyers to game the system, but made easy for individuals to follow. However, most of the ten Commandments have been over ridden by the humans called Atheists, who then blame God for the evil in the world. As an atheist human, how many of God ten commandments do you think need to be overridden? One evil appears, that can be traced to these overridden ten commandants, how many atheists will then blame God?

Most of the evil of the world is connected to human laws and is therefore manmade evil. Consider the marijuana prohibition over the past 100 years. This was not a revelation from God. Most of the evil, in the classic sense, due to the prohibition, was done by the state, because humans subjectively defined this as good. This example by leadership messes up the mind of people, and allows classic evil to persist.

Jesus traced the source of all evil to law. Law defines evil. If you do away with the law, there is no longer any sin. Sin is only imputed where there is a law. For example, in many states of the US, what used to be defined as evil by man; marijuana, is no linger evil, simply by repealing the law. It was never evil in the classic sense, until man defined it that way. Once they changed the human definition; repeal the law, the social sin and the evil disappeared. Tree of knowledge of good and evil is law.

Jesus understood this hypocrisy, where humans make law, that allows themselves to do evil, in the name of goodness. He did away with law and instead chose a doctrine of faith, grounded on the simple law set given by God. This path would minimize evil since it minimize the source of evil called law. But atheist man wanted to play god and stacked the deck with the laws of man designed to allow for evil in the name of good. Third world dictators create laws to maintain power, wth enforcement a way to intimidate the masses. Consider the collusion delusion. This was pure evil, since it was total deception for power. Yet to the Democrat atheists this was defined as good. This irrationality is how the mass mind gets twisted and evil persists in the world; ends justifies the means.

The ends justifies the means is the main sources of evil. People will do evil, in the classic sense, if they can subjectively justify the payoff being worth their action; more good for them than evil for them. This is due to atheism doing away with divine law which does not allow this philosophy. Classic law deals with the means before the ends. The collusion delusion would never started if they could not justify lying and cheating; thou hall not steal nor bear false witness. This would ended before it started. But if we assume ends; power, justifies the means, deception, then this is justified in the mind; law of man.

Excellent rendition of the situation.

In short, evil exists because people disobey God's Laws. "Some" atheists then blame God for what humans do which is highly illogical and the fallacy is called shifting the blame or scapegoating.

“All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth. Consider, for instance, that which hath been forbidden, in the Bayán, unto men. God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

 

[Trailblazer]

Then that invalidates your entire introduction to that atheist to whom you referred and spoke on behalf of doesn't it.

Do you mean because he does not believe in God?

I think he does believe in god, the imaginary god he dreamed up, the god he made in his own image, the god that should hop to and do whatever he wants, that god.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Elaborate on why good cannot exist unless evil exists or vice versa if willing. And why many believe one giant happy family of only good people will end up on Earth and/or in heaven eventually. That would seem impossible according to you, since that still cannot exist unless evil existed.

Because some things are simply relative to other things, like up and down, east and west, in and out, good and bad.

 

[Shad]

Call it what you want.
We just do not believe that all the stories in the Bible literally happened as written.
That is not cherry picking since we believe everything in the Bible has a spiritual significance.

So what is the spiritual significance of the conquest of Canaan which you say never happened?

 

[Trailblazer]

So what is the spiritual significance of the conquest of Canaan which you say never happened?

I wouldn't know. I am no Bible expert. For all I know, it happened.

 

[Shad]

I wouldn't know. I am no Bible expert. For all I know, it happened.

Now you are flip/flopping. Did it happen or not?

 

[Trailblazer]

Now you are flip/flopping. Did it happen or not?

I do not know and I do not care since it has absolutely no bearing on the present day world..
I am also not going to play games of he said she said. I live in the present, not the past.

 

[Shad]

I do not know and I do not care since it has absolutely no bearing on the present day world..
I am also not going to play games of he said she said. I live in the present, not the past.

Except the story is key to a figure your religion acknowledges; Moses. Ergo what is the source for using Moses if Moses is a myth? You are dancing around the issue as you are caught between endorsing a horrible story while try maintain your religion's claims to be part of the same tradition and having communication with God. If Moses is fiction your concede your religion is as well.

Did Moses exist?

 

[Trailblazer]

Except the story is key to a figure your religion acknowledges; Moses. Ergo what is the source for using Moses if Moses is a myth? You are dancing around the issue as you are caught between endorsing a horrible story while try maintain your religion's claims to be part of the same tradition and having communication with God. If Moses is fiction your concede your religion is as well.

Did Moses exist?

Baha'u'llah acknowledged the existence of Moses so that is how I know Moses existed.
Baha'u'llah wrote about Moses in The Kitáb-i-Íqán and He might have also written about Moses elsewhere.

Here is one place where He talks about Moses, there are others you can find if you do a search by 'Moses.'

“Among the Prophets was Abraham, the Friend of God. Ere He manifested Himself, Nimrod dreamed a dream. Thereupon, he summoned the soothsayers, who informed him of the rise of a star in the heaven. Likewise, there appeared a herald who announced throughout the land the coming of Abraham.

After Him came Moses, He Who held converse with God. The soothsayers of His time warned Pharaoh in these terms: “A star hath risen in the heaven, and lo! it foreshadoweth the conception of a Child Who holdeth your fate and the fate of your people in His hand.” In like manner, there appeared a sage who, in the darkness of the night, brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts. To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 62-63

 

[Shad]

After Him came Moses, He Who held converse with God. The soothsayers of His time warned Pharaoh in these terms: “A star hath risen in the heaven, and lo! it foreshadoweth the conception of a Child Who holdeth your fate and the fate of your people in His hand.” In like manner, there appeared a sage who, in the darkness of the night, brought tidings of joy unto the people of Israel, imparting consolation to their souls, and assurance to their hearts. To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 62-63

That is about the Exodus you rejected as of 5 mins ago.Look up Pharaoh

Now who is Moses?

 

[Trailblazer]

That is about the Exodus you rejected as of 5 mins ago.Look up Pharaoh

Now who is Moses?

Moses was a Manifestation of God.

 

[night912]

I do not know and I do not care since it has absolutely no bearing on the present day world..
I am also not going to play games of he said she said. I live in the present, not the past.

And yet.....

Call it what you want.
We just do not believe that all the stories in the Bible literally happened as written.
That is not cherry picking since we believe everything in the Bible has a spiritual significance.

I guess we can call it a contradiction. Yep, you only live in the present and not the past because you believe the stories of the past has spiritual significance because in the present, you don't know the spiritual significance of the past stories. Okay it all makes sense now.

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet.....

I guess we can call it a contradiction. Yep, you only live in the present and not the past because you believe the stories of the past has spiritual significance because in the present, you don't know the spiritual significance of the past stories. Okay it all makes sense now.

I said I do not believe that all the stories in the Bible literally happened as written.
I did not say I do not know the spiritual significance of the past stories.

 

[night912]

So what is the spiritual significance of the conquest of Canaan which you say never happened?

And your response......

I wouldn't know. I am no Bible expert. For all I know, it happened.

 

[Shad]

Moses was a Manifestation of God.

Who was Pharaoh and what did he do? What did Moses do involving Pharaoh?

 

[Trailblazer]

Who was Pharaoh and what did he do? What did Moses do involving Pharaoh?

If you don't know, maybe you should watch that movie entitled The Ten Commandments.