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Once lost always lost

Francine

Francine

Well-Known Member
According to the Bible, if a saved person falls away, they can never have a second repentance, because it puts Jesus to shame.

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” (Hebrews 6:4-6)
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
The application of this passage seems at odds with the daily crucifixion of Christ in the Eucharist.

How can you have a crucifixion without shame?

Since Christ is crucified daily by the Church, I don't see how this verse can be applied.
 
Francine

Francine

Well-Known Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Since Christ is crucified daily by the Church, I don't see how this verse can be applied.
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The Catholic Church believes the Sacrifice of the Mass is the same crucifixion-death of Christ, offered sacramentally in all times and places. The reason I find the passage in Hebrews difficult is that it seems to argue against a lifetime of repentance. It apparently teaches that you get one chance.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Francine said:
The Catholic Church believes the Sacrifice of the Mass is the same crucifixion-death of Christ, offered sacramentally in all times and places. The reason I find the passage in Hebrews difficult is that it seems to argue against a lifetime of repentance. It apparently teaches that you get one chance.
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Yes, which is theologically based on the one-time crucifixion of Christ. Since Christ is crucified daily, the justification for the penalty is gone.
 
ChristineES

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I don't believe that God only gives one chance. My husband believes that, and we have had some debates on it that always end in stalemate. I wonder if someone who claims to once have believed can actually turn away, which means I wonder if they truly believed in the first place.
 
Super Universe

Super Universe

Defender of God
This isn't talking about humans. What human is enlightened? What human has tasted the heavenly gift and partook of the Holy Ghost?

This is talking about ascended beings because they should know better.
 
logician

logician

Well-Known Member
Francine said:
According to the Bible, if a saved person falls away, they can never have a second repentance, because it puts Jesus to shame.

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” (Hebrews 6:4-6)
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I've never heard this theory, and I've attended a number of different denomination's services when I was younger. WHat I have heard is "once saved, always saved".
 
Francine

Francine

Well-Known Member
logician said:
I've never heard this theory, and I've attended a number of different denomination's services when I was younger. WHat I have heard is "once saved, always saved".
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"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (1 Cor. 10:12)
 
Smoke

Smoke

Done here.
Francine said:
According to the Bible, if a saved person falls away, they can never have a second repentance, because it puts Jesus to shame.

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” (Hebrews 6:4-6)
Click to expand...
In the fourth century, Christians often delayed baptism until adulthood for that very reason, and even St. Gregory the Theologian, who was the son of a bishop, wasn't baptized until he was nearly thirty. Some Christians remained catechumens till the very end of their lives, reserving baptism for the deathbed to minimize the chance of committing any serious sin after baptism. We can only imagine the chagrin of those who found themselves dying suddenly, with no one around to baptize them.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
MidnightBlue said:
Well, then, you have chosen the wrong religion. :D
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Ha! For what it's worth, Christians did differ on opinion about this concept early on. Some documents say that there is no chance for redemption, some say one, and three, or infinite (which is rare). The reason for this is persecution. The early churches had to determine what to do with people who denied the faith under torture and wanted back into the fellowship, and especially what to do with people who gave up names of church members to be killed (of course under torture) or gave up religious writings to be burned. That is certainly the context here as well as in John with the re-instating of Peter after he denied Christ.
 
doppelganger

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
Thankfully one dies to one's self and is reborn a wholly new person through Christ. Therefore, while there are no second chances, there is an unlimited supply of first chances.
 
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