On the Impossibility of Evolution on Logical Grounds Alone

[Theweirdtophat]

So what is your retort? I don't believe in it wholeheartedly just because I don't agree entirely with creationism. Hardly anyone bothers to explain or try to explain the holes in evolution theory. People will have "educated" guesses but it is a guess nonetheless. Lots of things in science have guesses, yet scientists criticize those who have faith. Quite hypocritical. It also doesn't help that you have no argument but basically resort to schoolyard taunts. Sorry I'm not like the "average JOE" and blindly accept what I am spoon fed.

 

[outhouse]

Hardly anyone bothers to explain or try to explain the holes in evolution theory

Do we know everything about evolution no we dont. We don't know everything about gravity either BUT the apple still falls to the ground.

Evolution is fact, the holes in the gaps of our knowledge in evolution does not change its factual status.

People will have "educated" guesses but it is a guess nonetheless

No it is not and your it looks like your changing context out of desperation bud.

Science is based on observation and reporting of said facts, NOT GUESSING. That's is your lack of knowledge.

nonetheless. Lots of things in science have guesses, yet scientists criticize those who have faith

Science is not based on faith, science does not address faith either. So your wrong again.

 

[outhouse]

There are still some holes in evolution theory.

I doubt you know any credible ones outside creationist websites promoting pseudoscience.

It doesn't bother to explian why creatures older than us like snakes crocodiles and various reptiles haven't evolved and become just as advanced or more advanced than us.

Actually it does in great detail . You just don't understand biology in its most basic form, do you?

Also if we come from apes, why are there still apes around?

Because their environment has not changed and certain species refused to move outside their environment that would require change.

Shouldn't every ape have evolved into something more?

No.

Its based on environmental changes. Humans started going from one fertile area to another over great distances, which required adaptation to that environment.

Adaptation makes more sense than evolution

It is part of it, with biological education you would understand this.

 

[outhouse]

I don't agree entirely with creationism

How can you? There is no one version of it, and no creationist agree on one version.

Its like saying do you agree with imagination, because everyone imagines what they think happened in an environment of absolutely no evidence what so ever.

There is no evidence of any kind anywhere that is credible.

As opposed to the facts evolution is based on that is not in dispute in any credible university IN EVERY civilized university around the WHOLE world, taught as higher education.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I doubt you know any credible ones outside creationist websites promoting pseudoscience.



Actually it does in great detail . You just don't understand biology in its most basic form, do you?



Because their environment has not changed and certain species refused to move outside their environment that would require change.



No.

Its based on environmental changes. Humans started going from one fertile area to another over great distances, which required adaptation to that environment.



It is part of it, with biological education you would understand this.

If it explained it in great detail, why do you still see many people asking it? Also cheap insults isn't going to make your point any more valid.

Ok some apes stayed in one area and didn't evolve while others moved and evolved into humans? What sense does that make? What made those apes move in the first place?

Actually science has a LOT of guesswork and theories. And guess what? When one other theory arises, and if it makes sense, it replaces the old one. So evolution theory will probably be replaced like so many other theories. Theories are not facts. It's like saying entitlements are rights. They aren't the same thing, so let's stop trying to change the definition. Sorry if it doesn't make much sense to start out as very simplistic creatures and all of a sudden becoming cavemen and all of a sudden having a concept of science and math. No one has effectively tried to explained those gaps. Other than saying "lolz evolutionz didz it."

 

[Parsimony]

There are still some holes in evolution theory. It doesn't bother to explian why creatures older than us like snakes crocodiles and various reptiles haven't evolved and become just as advanced or more advanced than us.

Define "advanced". There are different ways to "advance" in evolution, and becoming intelligent is only one way among many. Crocodiles and snakes are well-adapted to their environment and have no reason to become intelligent because their already-existing traits are good enough to make them fit. Indeed, becoming smarter could even be a detriment to them if the disadvantages of having a large brain (such as its higher energy demand) offset the advantages (the ability to catch more food). No two species experience the same pressures and mutations, so they simply cannot all evolve in the same way. Evolution is not some goal-oriented process where everything gets more complex or smarter over the generations. Becoming less complex and less smart can also be of benefit given the right circumstances, such as for parasites.

Also if we come from apes, why are there still apes around?

Why are there still wolves around if dogs were domesticated from wolves? Why are there still Europeans if the United States was founded by Europeans? The answer is: not all wolves became dogs and not all Europeans became Americans. Likewise, not all apes became humans.

Shouldn't every ape have evolved into something more?

No, because (1) not all living things are subject to the same selection pressures and (2) not all living things experience the same mutations. If a species is well-adapted to its environment and that environment doesn't change, then it will gain no benefit from "evolving into something more", whatever that means.

Adaptation makes more sense than evolution.

Adaptation is a form of evolution.

 

[Valjean]

Evolution isn't directional, Theweirdtophat. It doesn't move from simple to complex. Things don't "advance" or evolve into "something more," they evolve to better adapt to their environments. Organisms can evolve from complex into simpler forms just as easily as vice versa.
It's all about adaptation to various environmental niches. If a plant or animal is well adapted to a particular, stable niche, expect little change. If the niche changes so will the creatures exploiting it.

Actually science has a LOT of guesswork and theories

Yes, but the guesses aren't touted as facts, they're just hypotheses to be tested, and the theories are facts. Remember, in science "theory" doesn't mean speculation, as in common parlance. A theory is science's highest degree of certainty. Spherical vs flat Earth: Theory. Bacteria cause disease: Theory.

Evolution is a fact. The theory of evolution describes the various mechanisms that drive evolution. No, we don't know every detail of these mechanisms, but the basics are well understood.
Note also that there are no -- zero -- alternative theories being proposed anywhere.

 

[outhouse]

If it explained it in great detail, why do you still see many people asking it?

They are uneducated.

Evolution is so much fact it has not been in dispute for over a hundred years. Most people don't question it, it is refused for the most part by fanaticism and fundamentalism of certain religious people who choose to remain willfully ignorant.

Also cheap insults isn't going to make your point any more valid.

Its not an insult it is reality. There are no credible counters against the facts of evolution, only pseudoscience of creationist fight these facts because their mythology states differently.

Ok some apes stayed in one area and didn't evolve while others moved and evolved into humans? What sense does that make?

Sense? that requires knowledge to understand.

It shows environmental changes can effect certain species, do you understand the depth of time when we are talking about millions of years?

What made those apes move in the first place?

Lack of resources.

So evolution theory will probably be replaced like so many other theories

Your factually wrong.

Do you understand the definition of the word FACT???????????????????????????

According to your thinking we will also redefine gravity????????????????????

 

[outhouse]

Evolution isn't directional, Theweirdtophat. It doesn't move from simple to complex.

Thank you!

Its more like a bush then a tree.

A common mistake of the ignorant to grade school biology, is that many think it is like a ladder. We know it factually is not.

 

[David M]

There are still some holes in evolution theory. It doesn't bother to explian why creatures older than us like snakes crocodiles and various reptiles haven't evolved and become just as advanced or more advanced than us.

Actually it does explain why snakes, crocodiles and various reptiles have not changes much, its to do with having reached a very suitable body plan for stable environmental niches. And it is also true that they have evolved over time just as we have, its just that their anatomy has not changed very much.

The term advanced is meaningless, a cobra is just as advanced as a human in terms of how much it has evolved.

Also if we come from apes, why are there still apes around? Shouldn't every ape have evolved into something more? Adaptation makes more sense than evolution.

If you are descended from your grandparents why do you still have cousins? That is the analogy of your supposed "hole". Evolution inevitabley leads to diversity and all existing ape species have evolved from early ancestors so it does explain why their are other species of ape around today. They are just as evolved as we are.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If it explained it in great detail, why do you still see many people asking it?

Because, apparently, a lot of people don't bother to learn anything about evolution under their own steam.

Ok some apes stayed in one area and didn't evolve while others moved and evolved into humans?

No, all apes evolved, but some apes evolved into humans while other apes evolved into the other varieties of apes we see today. They didn't "stop evolving", they just evolved differently.

What made those apes move in the first place?

Environmental pressures and continental drift. Basically the same reasons populations of animals move around now. Populations of organisms tend to spread naturally over time, and it make sense that over many generations a single population of organisms can spread into two or more separate populations - each requiring its own space in which to survive, and each competing with the others for space and natural resources.

Actually science has a LOT of guesswork and theories.

Theories and guesswork aren't equivalent. In science, a theory is a well-substantiated explanation of known facts. In other words, it's an explanation we have for a given phenomenon based on the best available facts we have and repeatedly tested and verified for accuracy.

And guess what? When one other theory arises, and if it makes sense, it replaces the old one.

Actually, no. Theories are a lot more complicated than that and require demonstration - it's not just "what makes sense", it's "what best fits the available evidence and has been tested for accuracy".

So evolution theory will probably be replaced like so many other theories.

The theory of evolution won't be "replaced", it will just be refined and elaborated on. Any new discoveries or ideas that pass muster will be incorporated into the theory.

Theories are not facts.

Theories are EXPLANATIONS of facts.

It's like saying entitlements are rights. They aren't the same thing, so let's stop trying to change the definition.

Nobody is trying to change the definition, and I frankly think it's incredibly hypocritical of you to argue against changing definitions of words when you clearly don't understand the scientific definitions of these words to begin with.

Sorry if it doesn't make much sense to start out as very simplistic creatures and all of a sudden becoming cavemen and all of a sudden having a concept of science and math.

You're right, it doesn't make much sense. However, it DOES make sense when you actually understand that it wasn't "all of a sudden" and actually happened over millions of years throughout countless generations.

No one has effectively tried to explained those gaps. Other than saying "lolz evolutionz didz it."

People have tried, you apparently just haven't bothered to learn anything.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

So what is your retort? I don't believe in it wholeheartedly just because I don't agree entirely with creationism. Hardly anyone bothers to explain or try to explain the holes in evolution theory. People will have "educated" guesses but it is a guess nonetheless. Lots of things in science have guesses, yet scientists criticize those who have faith. Quite hypocritical. It also doesn't help that you have no argument but basically resort to schoolyard taunts. Sorry I'm not like the "average JOE" and blindly accept what I am spoon fed.

I think the reason for the gif is because you were stating things that were simply wrong. You could take your points and put them into google and come up with the answers in seconds.
For example there is a whole field of evolutionary biology that deals with studying why certain organisms seem to stay the same for millions of years and why some do not. The answer that we have right now about this is pretty simple and in some ways unsatisfying. One answer and a relatively new issue is that not all organisms produce mutations at the same rate. If a species produces far fewer mutations then it won't change as rapidly. The second is that there are rare cases where an animal fits almost perfectly in its niche. This is done either through being the very best at what it does or at being so unique that it is alone in its niche. Crocodiles are most likely of the latter for example.

And I think the major reason why the gif of the laughing simpsons was used was because you asked a question that has been answered so many times that it makes me want to puke even answering it.

Why are there still apes? We are still apes. We evolved from a common ancestor with the chimpanzees. We did not evolve from chimpanzees. The species that we diverged from no longer exists as it once was.
So the answer is as follows.
1) We are still apes.
2) All apes have evolved. They did not take the track of human evolution. Asking why they didn't is like asking why we didn't evolve like gorilla or Giraffes. There is no set "goal" or "end point" for evolution.
3) These are things that evolution knows and it is far from a hole as human evolution is one of the most researched portions of the theory.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

So basically out of all the creatures on Earth who have evolved and are still evolving, we are the only ones that don't rely on just instinct and can have a concept of math and science. If certain apes were in an enviroment that caused the change, what enviroment was it, what caused the change and how?

Sorry I don't buy it. unless something sped up our evolution as in some sort of mutation or outside source, I might accept. How do people all of a sudden have knowledge of academics.

 

[David M]

Ok some apes stayed in one area and didn't evolve while others moved and evolved into humans? What sense does that make? What made those apes move in the first place?

No. Apes in one area evolved and apes in another area evolved. They evolved in different directions, probably due to environments being different, so one branch ended up evolving into the ancestors of modern chimps and bonobos while the other evolved into the ancestor of humans. There were probably other groups of that same species of ape that evolved down their own path but those descendants went extinct.

Actually science has a LOT of guesswork and theories. And guess what? When one other theory arises, and if it makes sense, it replaces the old one.

And if the old theory is based on solid facts it usually is not invalidated by the new theory but expanded upon. As an example Newtonian physics was not invalidated by general and special relativity, instead the new theories defined the boundaries where Newtonian physics breaks down.

So evolution theory will probably be replaced like so many other theories.

It will be updated and expanded, as it has already taken place a number of times. However the core mechanisms now have so much support that it is almost impossible for them to be invalidated.

Theories are not facts.

Theories explain facts, so any new theory would need to come up with a better explanation for all the facts that the current ToE explains so very well (with overwhelming evidence).

A "guess" in science is more accurately called a hypothesis.

Sorry if it doesn't make much sense to start out as very simplistic creatures and all of a sudden becoming cavemen and all of a sudden having a concept of science and math. No one has effectively tried to explained those gaps. Other than saying "lolz evolutionz didz it."

It may not make sense to you, but the explanations of the facts make perfect sense if you bother to learn what those explanations really say, "and all of a sudden becoming cavemen" demonstrates that you don't know what those explanations actually say. The evolution of humans from our common ancestor with chimpanzees has been the focus of a lot of research (not surprisingly as its about our history) and is now available with a lot of detail and no significant "gaps".

Science is always trying to explain any "gaps" or "holes" because that is what science does.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

So basically out of all the creatures on Earth who have evolved and are still evolving, we are the only ones that don't rely on just instinct and can have a concept of math and science.

As far as we are aware, humans are the only organisms who evolved the cognitive function capable of understanding such concepts, yes. However, some animals have demonstrated a capacity to learn beyond mere instinct, and can even solve simple mathematical problems.

If certain apes were in an enviroment that caused the change, what enciroment was it, what caused the change and how?

What caused the change is the same thing that causes all evolutionary changes: random mutations and environmental pressure. If you want a more in-depth analysis, I recommend sites like this:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-has-human-brain-evolved/
http://humanorigins.si.edu/human-characteristics/brains
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_human_intelligence

Sorry I don't buy it.

You're asking questions to which you don't know the answer, and then dismissing the answers before they're even presented to you. We're not interested in "selling" you anything. If you want to learn more about evolution, ask questions and wait for answers before evaluating them, otherwise you're just wasting our time.

unless something sped up our evolution as in some sort of mutation or outside source, I might accept. How do people all of a sudden have knowledge of academics.

Evolution can't be "sped up". It's not a ladder that progresses towards intelligence. Humans are not "more evolved" or "faster evolved" than any other organism on earth. We merely evolved particular brain functions, that is it. Please learn more about evolution.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

So basically out of all the creatures on Earth who have evolved and are still evolving, we are the only ones that don't rely on just instinct and can have a concept of math and science. If certain apes were in an enviroment that caused the change, what enciroment was it, what caused the change and how?

Sorry I don't buy it. unless something sped up our evolution as in some sort of mutation or outside source, I might accept. How do people all of a sudden have knowledge of academics.

I am not in the camp that believes our evolution is so amazing. Many other animals show signs of sentience and learning as well. Crows teach each other skills, chimpanzees use tools, elephants have better memories than we do (so do chimps btw) and can learn to pain and often bury their dead in the wild. Dolphins have a complex language that rivals early pre-human languages but spoken more than five times faster than any known human language today.

Our development of cognitive skills was a slow process that took a little more than two million years.

 

[Valjean]

There is also the "paragon of animals" conceit you might want to consider, weirdto.
Humans are hardly an improved or perfected species. A better argument could be made that humans are a failed species, even a planetary pathogen. From a deep history perspective we're a flash in the pan; an ape species that developed, proliferated and is now circling the drain -- and threatening to take the whole world ecosystem with it.

 

[viole]

There is also the "paragon of animals" conceit you might want to consider, weirdto.
Humans are hardly an improved or perfected species. A better argument could be made that humans are a failed species, even a planetary pathogen. From a deep history perspective we're a flash in the pan; an ape species that developed, proliferated and is now circling the drain -- and threatening to take the whole world ecosystem with it.

Yet, calling us a pathogen makes the implicit assumption that something is good or bad for the planet.

There is not such a thing. Evolution, and nature in general, is amoral. If we destroy the planet, the universe could not care the slightest bit.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Yet, calling us a pathogen makes the implicit assumption that something is good or bad for the planet.

There is not such a thing. Evolution, and nature in general, is amoral. If we destroy the planet, the universe could not care the slightest bit.

Ciao

- viole

You base this on what?

 

[viole]

You base this on what?

On the fact that if I do not do that, then I know nothing. For I cannot be absolutely sure of anything. I cannot be even absolutely sure that invisible fairies do not exist. That planets are not carried around by invisible angels. That I am really typing this text.

Do you know that gravity is attractive? Probably not, given that you did not check that all ripe apples fall to the ground instead of taking off to leave the earth. Did you check all those apples? If not, are you agnostic about the actractive character of gravity?

Ciao

- viole