Occultism

[InChrist]

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Just because it contradicts you beliefs does not make the logic invalid. If God is outside the laws of logic then logic greatly damage the idea of God. You know that age old question "could God make a stone so big even he cannot lift it"? The answer is seemingly no, which would mean that God is not all powerful. However, if we apply logic, we can realize that such a question is logically incoherent and poses absolutely no threat. So choose: a weak God or logic?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] I agree this question/paradox concerning God and the stone is very illogical to start with because it leaves out vital information concerning the nature of God. His [/FONT][FONT=&quot]omnipotence or all powerful abilities are not independent of His nature. This means that God does not do things which violate or are inconsistent with His nature. God is not self-contradictory. God is infinite and bigger than all creation. A rock or stone is a finite object by definition. It would be contradictory of God to make a finite object as a stone to be infinite in size, since only He is infinite. The stone could then no longer be defined as a stone. The fact that God (including His attribute of omnipotence) works within His nature, as does everything else He designed, and He does not violate His nature does not diminish His power or make Him a weak God. So I logically choose an all-powerful God and reject this question as invalid. I do agree with you that it poses no threat to the power of God.[/FONT]

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This is not true at all. Change is a law, so it is compatible with the other laws of nature.

[FONT=&quot]Change is compatible and can work within the laws of nature, but the laws themselves do not change, nor do the laws of logic.[/FONT]

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We can know this by testing it. It is actually quite obvious. Do you even know what the laws of logic are?
1. A is A
2. Not both A and Non-A at the same time in the same respect
3. Either A or Non-A

These obviously apply equally no matter where you are. Alien beings would be bound to these laws just as they would be bound to gravity. No amount of change will make A = Non-A.

[FONT=&quot]I agree with this and understand how logic works. I wasn’t asking you to explain it to me.. Maybe I should have worded my question more clearly. I was asking you, from your perspective that everything and everyone is “God”, how do you see or understand the laws of logic to be working when they must remain consistent and yet everything and everyone changes?[/FONT]

Yes, the laws of logic are compatible with God. However, they work the same without God, which is more basic and therefore more logical. The question is, if presented with logic against your God, would you accept the logic or your God? That is the million dollar question.

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[FONT=&quot]I don't believe a choice needs to be made between God or logic since I see God as the originator of logic, but I would be interested in more of your thoughts on how the laws of logic can work without a God or Lawgiver who is outside of time and creation.[/FONT]

 

[1137]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]This means that God does not do things which violate or are inconsistent with His nature. God is not self-contradictory.

I do not think you even realize what you said right here. God, by His nature, is bound to logic. You've just logically proven it. God's nature is logical, not the other way around, God cannot escape logic but logic can escape God (so to speak). What I mean is that logic is above God, or at the very least equal to him.
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Change is compatible and can work within the laws of nature, but the laws themselves do not change, nor do the laws of logic.

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Very true.

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I agree with this and understand how logic works. I wasn’t asking you to explain it to me.. Maybe I should have worded my question more clearly. I was asking you, from your perspective that everything and everyone is “God”, how do you see or understand the laws of logic to be working when they must remain consistent and yet everything and everyone changes?

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I don't think everything is God. There is no God in my opinion, so therefore nothingis God. Universal negative, No things are God(s). But, not everything changes, as you just pointed out. Really, very little actually changes. Our basic nature does not change, the laws we are tied to does not change.
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I[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] would be interested in more of your thoughts on how the laws of logic can work without a God or Lawgiver who is outside of time and creation.[/FONT]

According to what this say, you believe it to. God cannot be bound to something he created, he would be above logic, which you logically proved is not the case above. There is no creator of logic same as none of the laws of physics etc. They simply came to be.

 

[1137]

Apologies for my horrific grammar above

 

[InChrist]

I do not think you even realize what you said right here. God, by His nature, is bound to logic. You've just logically proven it. God's nature is logical, not the other way around, God cannot escape logic but logic can escape God (so to speak). What I mean is that logic is above God, or at the very least equal to him.

[FONT=&quot]I realize what I said, but I think you may have misinterpreted. I believe since logic and reason originate from God the Creator then it is an attribute of His and a part of His nature. He is bound by logic because it is Who He is and He cannot be self-contradictory to this aspect of Himself. Logic is not and cannot be above God because it is derived from God, it is not an entity of itself. The 65 mph speed limit law on the freeway was instituted by an authority, this law did not create itself, nor does it have any inherent power to exist on its own. Neither does the law of logic, it emanates from the Lawgiver. I think the objective laws of logic make sense because:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God is transcendent He is beyond the material universe being its Creator. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God has originated the laws of logic because they are a reflection of His nature. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The laws of logic are absolute [/FONT][FONT=&quot]because there is an absolute God.[/FONT]

I don't think everything is God. There is no God in my opinion, so therefore nothingis God. Universal negative, No things are God(s). But, not everything changes, as you just pointed out. Really, very little actually changes. Our basic nature does not change, the laws we are tied to does not change.

[FONT=&quot]I have listed below a few of your past quotes about “God”. The number at the end of each one refers to which post they were taken from. It certainly sounds like your idea is that ‘God’ is everything or all things. Some of your thoughts also sound contradictory or illogical. For example, how is it that “God’ is within us and external of us and all things? You have stated that "God' is incomprehensible, yet you seem speak with so much certainty about what "God" is. How is it that “God” is just energy, yet He is to blame for bad things as if He is a Personal Being? How or why would one blame or hate or love impersonal energy??? Are not some of your concepts contrary to the laws of logic? [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]My God is loving and vengeful, merciful and just, forgiving in cases... That is what I mean by whole. I do not believe this simply because a book written by men says so, but because it is logical and obvious. If all is God, then that is all, not some. 113[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The God I believe in is beyond our understanding, we are human after all. But God is within us and external of us, and all things, although all of "reality" is just energy of God anyways.118[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]We accept that God is ALL, just and merciful, giving and restricting, he is all capable and perfect (balanced). 173[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I mean that I believe God can be held accountable for both the good and the bad. I am thankful for all that happens to me, but I am not happy about all of it. I was always taught that it is ok to yell at God, hate Him, question Him. And I do this. I hate God for many reasons, I like Him for others, and I am respectful and thankful always. 174[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]But I never said I do not believe in a personal God, infact it is quite the opposite. God is to blame, in a way, for manifesting this reality in the first place.174[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]That force within myself IS God. Creator and Creation are not separated by anything except the illusion of Duality. 198[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Obviously. If all of God's essence was in each thing then all there would be is God. 202[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That is correct, we do not exist. Only Spirit / God exists.215[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I call energy Spirit / God because it is incomprehensible. 221[/FONT]
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[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The universe is in our minds. Everything is subjective except the fact that energy makes everything. We subjectively perceive it. There are no gods of any kind except that which we manifest.285[/FONT]

According to what this say, you believe it to. God cannot be bound to something he created, he would be above logic, which you logically proved is not the case above. There is no creator of logic same as none of the laws of physics etc. They simply came to be.

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[FONT=&quot]You have interpreted what I said through the lens of your own thoughts to reach the conclusion that I “proved” God is bound by logic or that He is not the Creator of such laws we see in place in the universe, but I proved , nor inferred no such thing, But if you believe the laws of nature and logic just simply came to be may I ask you the following questions?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How can absolute, conceptual, abstract laws be derived from a universe of matter, energy, and motion?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How do you account for the existence of logical absolutes when logical absolutes are conceptual by nature and not physical, energy, or motion?[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]No apologies necessary for grammar, definitely still readable. Hope you have a good day.
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[1137]

I don't think you have any idea what I've been saying. Firstly, when this started like 3 months ago I believed in God. We started right before I evolved past that. I'm actually rather consistent especially considering the drastic change in my beliefs. What you have listed is awesome, it shows my entire journey of thought. Very intriguing to re-read. But I also don't think you understood that I was saying god is a force, not a being (which is why I stopped calling it god). Panentheism is not a paradox, I think you should research it more.

Thanks for posting though! It shows my journey from primitive thought grasping for god and meaning to understanding and acceptance.

I'll address the rest later, I have finals.

 

[1137]

[FONT=&quot]I realize what I said, but I think you may have misinterpreted. I believe since logic and reason originate from God the Creator then it is an attribute of His and a part of His nature.

It cannot be a part of his nature if He created it. He would have to be above it. But, you said that God's nature is non contradictory, so you are being inconsistent.

He is bound by logic because it is Who He is and He cannot be self-contradictory to this aspect of Himself.

Exactly, logic precedes your God.
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How can absolute, conceptual, abstract laws be derived from a universe of matter, energy, and motion?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]How do you account for the existence of logical absolutes when logical absolutes are conceptual by nature and not physical, energy, or motion[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
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I think you misunderstand what the laws of logic are. They are laws of thought, laws to think rationally. They are not enforced or created by someone. The laws of logic do not apply to animals as they cannot think rationally, whereas the laws of physics do apply. The laws of logic simply exist to us humans so that we can think logically. Sorry, I am having trouble explaining this, I feel like it is overly simple. Without rational thought, no laws of logic. Just like without matter, no laws of physics.

 

[InChrist]

It cannot be a part of his nature if He created it. He would have to be above it. But, you said that God's nature is non contradictory, so you are being inconsistent.

[FONT=&quot]I don’t think of the laws of logic as something which God created as He created the earth, stars or planets, let’s say. When I say logic is a part of His nature, I mean that the logical, rational thinking process is a part of God’s mind. It is a part of His makeup and logic is not separate from His nature or who He is as Being. Therefore I don’t see logic as above or below God. [/FONT]

Exactly, logic precedes your God.

[FONT=&quot]Well, I said I believe logic emanates from God, that’s a lot different than preceding God.[/FONT]



I

think you misunderstand what the laws of logic are. They are laws of thought, laws to think rationally. They are not enforced or created by someone. The laws of logic do not apply to animals as they cannot think rationally, whereas the laws of physics do apply. The laws of logic simply exist to us humans so that we can think logically. Sorry, I am having trouble explaining this, I feel like it is overly simple. Without rational thought, no laws of logic. Just like without matter, no laws of physics.

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[FONT=&quot]I don’t think we have any disagreement on what the laws of logic, because I agree that they are conceptual realities that occur within the human mind and that animals do not rationally think this way.
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[FONT=&quot]Our difference in perspective seems to be the origin of logic and I'm not sure that we can resolve or come to agreement on this point. You seem to think that the laws of logic just simply exist, is that correct? This is what I do not understand about your view. How can something like logic which is related to rational thought simply exist apart from a mind or intelligence which thinks? If these laws of logic are consistent everywhere and absolute for everyone, then isn’t it sensible or even necessary that there is an absolute intelligence from which such logic and rational thinking arises?[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] How do you account for the origin of logic? Where do the laws of logic come from?[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I believe the laws of logic originate in the mind of the Personal Being who is the Creator of the universe and because humans are made in the image of this Being then our minds also have these same laws of logical, rational thinking at work within them.[/FONT]


I hope your finals are going well.

 

[1137]

The laws of logic came about because of rational thought. We discovered ways to think logically without contradiction. Before rational thought evolved, these laws were not even important, as they couldn't be used. They are not set laws in the same sense as physics. The laws of physics work on animals, the laws of logic don't, as they are not rational.

 

[InChrist]

The laws of logic came about because of rational thought. We discovered ways to think logically without contradiction. Before rational thought evolved, these laws were not even important, as they couldn't be used. They are not set laws in the same sense as physics. The laws of physics work on animals, the laws of logic don't, as they are not rational.

So are you saying that the laws of logic evolved within the human mind and before that they did not exist?

 

[1137]

So are you saying that the laws of logic evolved within the human mind and before that they did not exist?

I don't know how to explain.

 

[clown]

Hmmm hello everyone...I've just got a question about occultism...Is the hindu symbol "aum" a occult symbol? Aum is the symbol that is printed above the emblem..

Guys i cant post a image bcoz i have no posts...PLEASE PLEASE HELP ME OUT..Please go to wikipedia page of theosophical society and look at their emblem and please explain some stuff to me..

If you look at the symbols of their emblem ...Im sure many of the occultists will recognize the symbols in this image...there is the egyptian symbol ankh..the hexagram, the snake?, the swastika....and then we have aum...i understand some of the symbols in this image...but can anyone please explain to me what aum means...thanks!! im curious...

Thanks...Please help out..Im really curious and dont know where else to ask..

 

[1137]

Hmmm hello everyone...I've just got a question about occultism...Is the hindu symbol "aum" a occult symbol? Aum is the symbol that is printed above the emblem..

Guys i cant post a image bcoz i have no posts...PLEASE PLEASE HELP ME OUT..Please go to wikipedia page of theosophical society and look at their emblem and please explain some stuff to me..

If you look at the symbols of their emblem ...Im sure many of the occultists will recognize the symbols in this image...there is the egyptian symbol ankh..the hexagram, the snake?, the swastika....and then we have aum...i understand some of the symbols in this image...but can anyone please explain to me what aum means...thanks!! im curious...

Thanks...Please help out..Im really curious and dont know where else to ask..

It really depends on the definition. Symbols really have no set meanings. For example, the hexagram could be a sign of Judaism, Thelema, Alchemy, etc. The snake could be knowledge as much as it could be Satan. As for the Aum, personally I would not say that it is an occult symbol in the same way the pentagram (my avatar) would be considered. But, some people see evil and occult as synonyms, and what is not their religion as evil. This is logically flawed though.

 

[Iti oj]

Hmmm hello everyone...I've just got a question about occultism...Is the hindu symbol "aum" a occult symbol? Aum is the symbol that is printed above the emblem..

Guys i cant post a image bcoz i have no posts...PLEASE PLEASE HELP ME OUT..Please go to wikipedia page of theosophical society and look at their emblem and please explain some stuff to me..

If you look at the symbols of their emblem ...Im sure many of the occultists will recognize the symbols in this image...there is the egyptian symbol ankh..the hexagram, the snake?, the swastika....and then we have aum...i understand some of the symbols in this image...but can anyone please explain to me what aum means...thanks!! im curious...

Thanks...Please help out..Im really curious and dont know where else to ask..

its as magical as you want to make it. the important question is why do you care so much? what does it mean to you? what value do you attach to it. what legends and lore have you heard?

 

[InChrist]

Hmmm hello everyone...I've just got a question about occultism...Is the hindu symbol "aum" a occult symbol? Aum is the symbol that is printed above the emblem..

Guys i cant post a image bcoz i have no posts...PLEASE PLEASE HELP ME OUT..Please go to wikipedia page of theosophical society and look at their emblem and please explain some stuff to me..

If you look at the symbols of their emblem ...Im sure many of the occultists will recognize the symbols in this image...there is the egyptian symbol ankh..the hexagram, the snake?, the swastika....and then we have aum...i understand some of the symbols in this image...but can anyone please explain to me what aum means...thanks!! im curious...

Thanks...Please help out..Im really curious and dont know where else to ask..

"Aum (also spelled Om), is the most sacred symbol in Hinduism. Hindu scriptures tell many things about this symbol. In Hinduism, Aum is like calling god's name towards you. This name is generally said three times, before chanting any prayers. Om is usually related to the Hindu God Shiva, who is the creator and the destroyer."
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum

I would say it is an occult symbol in that it is used to invoke a god other than the true Creator of heaven and earth and doing so is an open invitation for demons to enter one's life.

 

[1137]

"Aum (also spelled Om), is the most sacred symbol in Hinduism. Hindu scriptures tell many things about this symbol. In Hinduism, Aum is like calling god's name towards you. This name is generally said three times, before chanting any prayers. Om is usually related to the Hindu God Shiva, who is the creator and the destroyer."
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum

I would say it is an occult symbol in that it is used to invoke a god other than the true Creator of heaven and earth and doing so is an open invitation for demons to enter one's life.

How do you know their Gods aren't the true ones? They've been recognized much longer than yours has been.

 

[clown]

It really depends on the definition. Symbols really have no set meanings. For example, the hexagram could be a sign of Judaism, Thelema, Alchemy, etc. The snake could be knowledge as much as it could be Satan. As for the Aum, personally I would not say that it is an occult symbol in the same way the pentagram (my avatar) would be considered. But, some people see evil and occult as synonyms, and what is not their religion as evil. This is logically flawed though.

i agree...some people do see other gods as evil...the hexagram could be a symbol of judaism...but then again... king solomon had connections with many strange women of different races and religion..he could have been influenced...one can never truly tell unless we study history..

its as magical as you want to make it. the important question is why do you care so much? what does it mean to you? what value do you attach to it. what legends and lore have you heard?

aum is a symbol in our everyday life in india,we worship it, use it in our everyday life. i was studying about theosophical society in wikipedia...and i noticed that there was the aum symbol and swastika in it and we also see the star of david...but no symbol of christianity or islam was included...and there are over 200 million muslims in my country..i have no religious affiliations..but i like reading little bit about religions of the world..

I would say it is an occult symbol in that it is used to invoke a god other than the true Creator of heaven and earth and doing so is an open invitation for demons to enter one's life.

u see...in hinduism they believe that god is one..despite the the hundreds of gods in hinduism..there are three main gods, which is brahma, shiva and vishnu...and these 3 are unique and are also portrayed as the same..brahma created the universe, shiva is the lord of destruction, and vishnu is the lord of life and caretaker of humans..anyway...thanks 4 replying guys...i believe i can only discover the origins of aum from the vedas...thanks again!!..

 

[blackout]

It really depends on the definition. Symbols really have no set meanings.

Unless, of course, the symbol specifically means (stands for) "Set"* or "set"**.





*Egyptian Mythology/Prince of Darkness
** Mathematics

 

[InChrist]

How do you know their Gods aren't the true ones? They've been recognized much longer than yours has been.

I do not expect you to agree, accept, or maybe not even understand my view. But to answer your question, I believe the many gods which compose Brahman or the impersonal essence or force (not too unlike your beliefs) of Hinduism are false because like you, I read a lot. My research has revealed that the earliest Hindu literature, the Rig Veda, speaks often of the Creator or the One over all. I believe it is possible that at one time the Hindus knew about the One true Creator God, but as with any culture which turns away from the true God a digression takes place into the worship of many false gods. This pattern of digression to the worship of false gods is consistently shown to have occurred since the creation of humanity and throughout ancient Israel when people turned away from God their Creator.

The testimonies of former Hindus held in bondage by dark powers behind their multitude of gods who have been delivered by the superior power of the true Creator God also shows me that these gods of Hinduism are false.


Death of a Guru - The Story of Rabi Maharaj


The biblical account and revelation of a Personal God with personal attributes reflected in each person and the orderliness and beauty of creation and the universe also testifies to me that it is more reasonable to believe in a personal Being as God and that an impersonal force which manifests as millions of gods is false.

 

[1137]

Well such a force is not really impersonal. In fact, it is more possible than any other thing that could possibly exist, including a God. If something make you, surrounds you, and penetrate you all at the same time how could you possibly consider that impersonal? Now, if you simply mean it is not going to hold your hand through life and reveal things like scripture to you then yes, it fits such a definition.

As far as the testimonies, there are also testimonies of people who were Christian and found liberation from this. Either you cannot recognize it from either side or must on both, meaning that people have found Christianity to be evil and spiritually harmful and left. What is your explanation for such a thing?

 

[InChrist]

Well such a force is not really impersonal. In fact, it is more possible than any other thing that could possibly exist, including a God. If something make you, surrounds you, and penetrate you all at the same time how could you possibly consider that impersonal? Now, if you simply mean it is not going to hold your hand through life and reveal things like scripture to you then yes, it fits such a definition.

As far as the testimonies, there are also testimonies of people who were Christian and found liberation from this. Either you cannot recognize it from either side or must on both, meaning that people have found Christianity to be evil and spiritually harmful and left. What is your explanation for such a thing?

My explanation is that the person who found Christianity to be evil and harmful and left it only knew a religion and left a religion organization... such a person never ever knew the True and Living Personal God, the loving Almighty Creator of heaven and earth.