Occultism

[1137]

Actually, let me amend that. If all this is true for you then it is true, for you. But what does it accomplish, honestly? It's wasting this life time staying in one spot. We are supposed to evolve towards self perfection, not wither away.

 

[Sylvan]

You didn't really answer my questions: What is your motivation or your reasons for practicing sorcery? What was it that drove you to practice sorcery from a very young age?

Do you clearly remember the motivations for your actions when you were five or six years old? It was something I've always known that I was, as long as I can remember. I was in my late teens before I actually 'tried' to 'affect' anything with it. If you don't understand how that could be (because isn't that the whole point, right?) then in my opinion you don't understand enough to speak with authority on this subject other than within the context of likely messily translated references in that ridiculous book. If you want to impress me the next time you quote it do it in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek and explain the context of important terms from a perspective of historical linguistics.

If I converted to Christianity tomorrow I'd likely be attempting to summon Goetic spirits out of the Key of Solomon to visible appearance with the full authority of the Lord Jesus Christ... just for the hell of it (pun intended) and start saying Psalms to rededicate all my ritual implements. The process is a part of me, and many others, and its not going away just because it makes you uncomfortable.

And you don't have any reply for my accusation that the basic philosophical premise of the Christianity you are presenting reveals a passive aggressive need for control writ large? I may speak with spirits, but I'm not writing their words down in a book and telling all and sundry that they are speaking the truth and better believe what they have to say or something bad will happen to you after you die. If the spirits I speak with have a message for someone, it is up for that person to evaluate the message, and up to the spirits to bring that person to me for the message to be received. Going out of your way to publicize your own revelations is tacky. Saying that they are they word of the real creator of the universe who just so happens to be the patron of your tribal group was understandable cultural politics in the time the OT was written, but in the 21st century is anachronistic to say the least and yes.. deeply arrogant. Some anachronisms are quaint, and some should probably remain in the back country with the Amish and so forth. Some create and maintain horrific traditions like female genital mutilation or institutionalized kiddie diddling. Given the history of brutal missionary violence in the context of colonization I have to categorize the Christian project generally with the latter examples.

 

[InChrist]

Actually, let me amend that. If all this is true for you then it is true, for you. But what does it accomplish, honestly? It's wasting this life time staying in one spot. We are supposed to evolve towards self perfection, not wither away.

[FONT=&quot]I don’t think truth is subjective. If something is true, then it is an objective fact or reality. God in the Bible claims to be the One and only true God and Creator of the universe and all life. If this is true, then it is not “my truth”, but God’s truth and revelation to humanity and it would be true regardless of whether or not one accepts or believes it. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I don’t consider my life wasted or stuck in one spot. I am in a loving relationship with the One who created each precious life for this very purpose and I am living new eternal life now.[/FONT]

 

[InChrist]

Do you clearly remember the motivations for your actions when you were five or six years old? It was something I've always known that I was, as long as I can remember. I was in my late teens before I actually 'tried' to 'affect' anything with it. If you don't understand how that could be (because isn't that the whole point, right?) then in my opinion you don't understand enough to speak with authority on this subject other than within the context of likely messily translated references in that ridiculous book. If you want to impress me the next time you quote it do it in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek and explain the context of important terms from a perspective of historical linguistics.

Fair enough that you were too young to remember what initially prompted you, but what motivates you now? What are your reasons for practicing sorcery or witchcraft?


[FONT=&quot]I could look up the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek and sometimes I do, but I’m not trying to impress you.[/FONT]

If I converted to Christianity tomorrow I'd likely be attempting to summon Goetic spirits out of the Key of Solomon to visible appearance with the full authority of the Lord Jesus Christ... just for the hell of it (pun intended) and start saying Psalms to rededicate all my ritual implements. The process is a part of me, and many others, and its not going away just because it makes you uncomfortable.

[FONT=&quot]If this were the case, then you would not have actually converted to following or trusting Jesus Christ alone for your spiritual and eternal life.[/FONT]

And you don't have any reply for my accusation that the basic philosophical premise of the Christianity you are presenting reveals a passive aggressive need for control writ large? I may speak with spirits, but I'm not writing their words down in a book and telling all and sundry that they are speaking the truth and better believe what they have to say or something bad will happen to you after you die. If the spirits I speak with have a message for someone, it is up for that person to evaluate the message, and up to the spirits to bring that person to me for the message to be received. Going out of your way to publicize your own revelations is tacky. Saying that they are they word of the real creator of the universe who just so happens to be the patron of your tribal group was understandable cultural politics in the time the OT was written, but in the 21st century is anachronistic to say the least and yes.. deeply arrogant. Some anachronisms are quaint, and some should probably remain in the back country with the Amish and so forth. Some create and maintain horrific traditions like female genital mutilation or institutionalized kiddie diddling. Given the history of brutal missionary violence in the context of colonization I have to categorize the Christian project generally with the latter examples.

[/quote]

From what I see on this forum many people go out of their way to publicize their beliefs and revelations. I don’t consider the scriptures “my revelations or my ideas”. The Bible claims to be the Word of God the Creator of heaven and earth. The words of the scripture confront human sin and pride, including my own. The scriptures are not comfortable to one who is in rebellion to their Creator, which I was, but God brought me face to face with the reality of my need for a Savior. You don’t have to agree with anything I say or even read it, but I suppose I can post like anyone else. I really have nothing to be proud or arrogant about, but if you think I come across that way, I don't think there is much I can do about it. I'm not trying to, nor do I feel that way toward you or anyone else.



I’m not sure what your point is of bringing up horrific traditions or violence, except to get off topic and attack Christianity. But the fact is that all such behaviors and practices you seem to be alluding to were/are done by evil, carnal individuals or groups and certainly were/are not led by the Holy Spirit or condoned by Christ. True Christians live their lives for others; i.e. Amy Carmichael who lived in India for fifty-six years, remaining even after an injury which left her bed ridden. She saved little girls from temple prostitution, opened an orphanage which cared for more than 1000 children, fought against the caste system showing love and care to the untouchables. Out of respect for the Indian culture she wore native dress and all orphans were given Indian names. She often travelled long distances on hot, dusty roads just to rescue one child. This is just one example of many. If you what to continue off the subject of this thread you could start another one.

 

[1137]

[FONT=&quot]I don’t think truth is subjective. If something is true, then it is an objective fact or reality. God in the Bible claims to be the One and only true God and Creator of the universe and all life. If this is true, then it is not “my truth”, but God’s truth and revelation to humanity and it would be true regardless of whether or not one accepts or believes it. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I don’t consider my life wasted or stuck in one spot. I am in a loving relationship with the One who created each precious life for this very purpose and I am living new eternal life now.[/FONT]

Well of course there is objective truth in reality. But our realities are subjective. There is a difference between the two. You see, all that we learn from our senses is subjective. Whatever force we are observing external of ourselves is no what it seems, it is all some type of force / energy that we perceive in our own way. For example, nothing is really solid, it is particles just close together. Another example is how we can have different reaction to the same thing. For example, some people love pain. So if I got hurt I would see it as bad whereas they would see it as good. Subjective.

So, your truth is Christianity. It is obviously not objectively true, we can show this with things such as magick. You say that I can accept or deny your man made book that claims to be the work of God. Likewise, I say you can accept or deny facts that we objectively know. Ignorance is always a choice, and an unacceptable but personal choice to make.

As for your life, what you described is exactly staying in one spot. You read the bible, accepted it, and are not going anywhere. What's the harm in studying other things if you are so secure in your beliefs? You are only hurting your Self. I have read many holy works and studied many religions because I actually am secure in my factual based beliefs.

 

[1137]

I get the overwhelming feeling that you are not at all interested in science, fact, explanation, etc. Simply in backing up closed minded beliefs that have been shown incorrect over and over on this thread, which is quite unrespectable. That, my friend, is staying in the same place.

 

[flame93]

If something is hidden (occult) there is more reason to unveil it, because the nature of the man is to explore. Manny of occult and dark things make a lot of sense when we explore and demystify them.

 

[InChrist]

According to the biblical scriptures which I believe to be God’s Word He has already demystified occult practices. There are only two sources of spiritual/supernatural power; God (the source of good) and Satan (the source of evil) and even Satan’s power is very limited and small compared to Almighty God’s. Humans have no such power in themselves, but they are awed and intrigued by supernatural power. When a person refuses to submit or trust in the Creator’s power alone, but instead looks elsewhere Satan and/or demons will step in to oblige, impress, and deceive for their own ends.



And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. John 3:19-20

 

[Sylvan]

Well I don't believe in that ridiculous book, nor that what you just presented is anything other than an extremely simplistic interpretation of said book. I'll explain the other answers to your questions in a later post, but have to point out that as long as you keep coming back to said book I don't think we're ever going to get anywhere with this discussion. Because I don't believe it to be the word of any god other the tribal patron of certain semetic peoples and certain viral beings and institutions related to him, and that's the bottom line. Using that book as your sole reference and then trying to explain occultism as a theological concept using such hostile and limited material strikes me as completely asinine. I may not like theology as a concept generally but if someone is going to define that for me it sure isn't going to be someone like you.

 

[Sylvan]

You didn't really answer my questions: What is your motivation or your reasons for practicing sorcery? What was it that drove you to practice sorcery from a very young age?

I have to thank you for this question, despite the fact that I already answered it to the best of my ability. It gave me the opportunity for a lot of private reflection and contemplation. None of that, however, will be shared with you here. I've decided those insights are mine to distribute as I wish. Besides, realizing I could anticipate your pat reply if not the exact passage invoked, it would be a waste of effort. However, coincidentally, I did find this passage in a beat-up copy of Gerald Gardner's "The Meaning of Witchcraft" (1959. pg. 36-38) I picked up yesterday which addressed these issues:

Not before 1735 were penal laws against witchcraft repealed; and not until 1951 was the last Witchcraft act swept from the Statute book. With all this history of persecution, can anyone wonder that members of the witch cult are not particularly fond of the orthodox Church, or that they distrust a faith which can take the teachings of its Master, who never persecuted anyone, and turn them into a frenzy of horror and terror? How many perished in the witch-mania [...] will probably never be known. [...]

Even though all laws on the subject have been repealed, this repeal has been received in some quarters with regret; and there are still attempts to whip up persecution by getting sensational scare-stories printed, endorsed by Churchmen who issue solemn warnings about 'black magic' and 'devil-worship'. Can anyone be surprised that adherents of this ancient cult prefer generally not to be known? Yet people are annoyed when I refuse to give them the names and addresses of persons whom I know to be witches, or take them to where they can watch a witch meeting unobserved!

What does a witch get out of witchcraft? For one thing she has the satisfaction of knowing she serves an ancient creed which she believes to be true. Nowadays, many people have only the simple pleasure of being themselves and following those things in which they are interested, among friends who understand them. To some there is the fun of belonging to a sort of secret society. This is a harmless sort of amusement, realized by many organisations, such as that of Freemasonry. But in witchcraft there may be more. If you have any power, you may be among people who will teach you how to use it. As one witch said to a reporter, 'What do I get out of it? I get a life that holds infinite possibilities, and is entirely satisfying to me on all planes of consciousness. I have power to move in other dimensions and realms of being. I have communication with entities of different life forms [...] I experience forms of pleasure whose very existence is unknown to the majority of people. I have conquered fear. I have learned of the ordered pattern behind apparently unrelated things."

Another woman, a convert to witchcraft, told me, 'When I was a little girl I used to be terrified of the dark and being alone, because I often had the sensation of unseen presences around me. We were never encouraged to try to understand the spirit world. 'Spirits' were either banned altogether as the subject of conversation, or regarded with terror as evil. Since I have studied these things, however, I have lost this fear. Now I understand that just because an entity is not incarnate in flesh it is not necessarily evil, but that spirits are just like human beings in this respect; some are desirable companions and some are not. I know now how to deal with the 'undesirables', so I no longer dread them. This is one of the things that witchcraft has done for me.

Let me guess your reply.. 'OMG you and all these other people are being tricked by demons you just don't know it because of your lust for power its plain as day blah blah. yaddayadda..'

Malarkey.

Got anything better?

 

[1137]

According to the biblical scriptures which I believe to be God’s Word He has already demystified occult practices. There are only two sources of spiritual/supernatural power; God (the source of good) and Satan (the source of evil) and even Satan’s power is very limited and small compared to Almighty God’s. Humans have no such power in themselves, but they are awed and intrigued by supernatural power. When a person refuses to submit or trust in the Creator’s power alone, but instead looks elsewhere Satan and/or demons will step in to oblige, impress, and deceive for their own ends.

I am wondering whether you are aware or not that begging the question is a logical fallacy. We understand that some guys wrote a book that says this stuff, you've pointed it out many times as your only source and argument, pressing on against all evidence and logic. Do you realize how many other Gods and man made books people follow as closely as you do? Do this not logically infer that there is something wrong with following this line of thought?

Please, give one single argument, using logic, against occultism that is not just a slur of bible quote written by some man 2,000 years ago.

 

[InChrist]

Well I don't believe in that ridiculous book, nor that what you just presented is anything other than an extremely simplistic interpretation of said book. I'll explain the other answers to your questions in a later post, but have to point out that as long as you keep coming back to said book I don't think we're ever going to get anywhere with this discussion. Because I don't believe it to be the word of any god other the tribal patron of certain semetic peoples and certain viral beings and institutions related to him, and that's the bottom line. Using that book as your sole reference and then trying to explain occultism as a theological concept using such hostile and limited material strikes me as completely asinine. I may not like theology as a concept generally but if someone is going to define that for me it sure isn't going to be someone like you.

I respect your perspective to disagree with me and even your right to think the Bible is ridiculous. I keep going back to the that book because I believe it to be God's revelation of truth for the benefit of humanity, but maybe you are right and we can't get anywhere in discussion, although is does sadden me that you are missing out on all that Jesus Christ has for you.

 

[InChrist]

I have to thank you for this question, despite the fact that I already answered it to the best of my ability. It gave me the opportunity for a lot of private reflection and contemplation. None of that, however, will be shared with you here. I've decided those insights are mine to distribute as I wish. Besides, realizing I could anticipate your pat reply if not the exact passage invoked, it would be a waste of effort. However, coincidentally, I did find this passage in a beat-up copy of Gerald Gardner's "The Meaning of Witchcraft" (1959. pg. 36-38) I picked up yesterday which addressed these issues:




Let me guess your reply.. 'OMG I and all these other people are being tricked by demons you just don't know it because of your lust for power blah blah. yaddayadda..'

Malarkey.

Got anything better?

I can understand and respect your decision not to share your thoughts and insights and thank you for posting and sharing the excerpt from the book. It was interesting, but not really anything I was not aware of. I will say that I agree with the first paragraph completely...

"Not before 1735 were penal laws against witchcraft repealed; and not until 1951 was the last Witchcraft act swept from the Statute book. With all this history of persecution, can anyone wonder that members of the witch cult are not particularly fond of the orthodox Church, or that they distrust a faith which can take the teachings of its Master, who never persecuted anyone, and turn them into a frenzy of horror and terror? How many perished in the witch-mania [...] will probably never be known. [...]"

...and think the persecution of witches was evil and certainly unbiblical and un-Christlike.

 

[InChrist]

I am wondering whether you are aware or not that begging the question is a logical fallacy. We understand that some guys wrote a book that says this stuff, you've pointed it out many times as your only source and argument, pressing on against all evidence and logic. Do you realize how many other Gods and man made books people follow as closely as you do? Do this not logically infer that there is something wrong with following this line of thought?

Please, give one single argument, using logic, against occultism that is not just a slur of bible quote written by some man 2,000 years ago.

I do not think pointing to the biblical scriptures is begging the question or a fallacy for the following reasons:


The Bible is unique and remarkable in its internal consistency despite having been written by more than 40 different writers over a time span of 2000 years. The same moral laws and themes continue throughout and this internal consistency is necessary if the Bible is what it claims to be - God’s revelation.


Archaeological discoveries have confirmed much of biblical history.


Prophetic passages of scripture give great detail and have always proven accurate.


Last but not least is logic. The biblical worldview leads one to make sense of the laws of logic. In the scriptures we are told that it is God the Creator’s mind which is the standard for all knowledge (Col. 2:3).Since God created and upholds the universe and is beyond time then it is reasonable to expect that the laws of logic apply consistently everywhere in the universe at all times. And because God’s mind is sovereign over all truth and knowledge there can be no exceptions to the law of logic. This is consistent with what we see in relation to the laws of logic and we can know the laws of logic because we were made in God’s image and think in a rational way which is also consistent with His nature.


So when we take the biblical perspective the laws of logic make sense, but if the Bible is rejected as true then their remains no foundation for the laws of logic. For this reason I believe it is also logical to trust the scriptures assessment of occult practices.

 

[Sylvan]

From what I see on this forum many people go out of their way to publicize their beliefs and revelations. I don’t consider the scriptures “my revelations or my ideas”. The Bible claims to be the Word of God the Creator of heaven and earth. The words of the scripture confront human sin and pride, including my own.

I forgot to address this. I wasn't saying that you were the author of the scriptures. But as a proponent of these scriptures you are saying that it is your idea that they are correct and the inspired words of the true creator of the universe. Who for some reason was referred to in the plural at the beginning of the book but never mind lets just keep the blinders on.. The pre-existence of these scriptures or your or any number of peoples belief in them does not give them any intrinsic authority. We are people discussing here and you are presenting your idea. Which may have to do with this book some others wrote long ago, but as its proponent here, and as the author of this thread it is your idea you are defending here. And your unwillingness to own up to this is exactly where that whole passive aggressive arrogance thing comes up... it is a trademark of your lineage as far of the rest of us are concerned.

 

[Sylvan]

is does sadden me that you are missing out on all that Jesus Christ has for you.

That's cool. I actually had a pretty good relationship with the being I know as Jesus Christ growing up, even with the witch undercurrent thing, until I realized I was gay and felt very very betrayed. Didn't talk for years, but now we've totally patched things up. Let me assure you, he shares many of the same opinions of you and most of his followers that I do. But he loves and forgives you anyway, because that's the situation he got himself into. And he's that kind of guy.

 

[1137]

I must admit, that was slightly impressing. I will respond when time allows.

 

[1137]

I do not think pointing to the biblical scriptures is begging the question or a fallacy for the following reasons:

Begging the question is "a logical fallacy in which a premise of an argument contains a direct or indirect assumption that the conclusion is true; offering a circular argument; circular reasoning".
So when we ask you why the bible should count for anything, and you say it is the word of God, that is one thing. Then we ask how you know, and you say the bible says so. This is circular reasoning.

The Bible is unique and remarkable in its internal consistency despite having been written by more than 40 different writers over a time span of 2000 years. The same moral laws and themes continue throughout and this internal consistency is necessary if the Bible is what it claims to be - God’s revelation.

Ok, first of all there is a ridiculous amount of contradictions in the bible. It is not even close to being completely consistent. Also, the underlying themes of the bible, as we've pointed out, are filled with magick, mysticism, and occultism.

Archaeological discoveries have confirmed much of biblical history.

Don't usually do this, but sources please.

Prophetic passages of scripture give great detail and have always proven accurate.

This is just a silly argument. Prophesies do not count for anything. If I tell you that in the next 100 years a world power will desolve and there will be a large war, and that comes true (which is likely), I will expect your grandchildren to worship me. There are self fulfilling prophesies, prediction that will obviously come true, etc.

Last but not least is logic. The biblical worldview leads one to make sense of the laws of logic. In the scriptures we are told that it is God the Creator’s mind which is the standard for all knowledge (Col. 2:3).Since God created and upholds the universe and is beyond time then it is reasonable to expect that the laws of logic apply consistently everywhere in the universe at all times. And because God’s mind is sovereign over all truth and knowledge there can be no exceptions to the law of logic. This is consistent with what we see in relation to the laws of logic and we can know the laws of logic because we were made in God’s image and think in a rational way which is also consistent with His nature.

I like what you have said, but the problem is that logic can show that the Christian God is not likely to exist. So you have to choose between your beliefs and logic.

 

[InChrist]

Begging the question is "a logical fallacy in which a premise of an argument contains a direct or indirect assumption that the conclusion is true; offering a circular argument; circular reasoning".
So when we ask you why the bible should count for anything, and you say it is the word of God, that is one thing. Then we ask how you know, and you say the bible says so. This is circular reasoning.

I have said that the scriptures claim to be the Word of God, but I also have said that I believe there is reasonable evidence to support this claim.

Ok, first of all there is a ridiculous amount of contradictions in the bible. It is not even close to being completely consistent. Also, the underlying themes of the bible, as we've pointed out, are filled with magick, mysticism, and occultism.

[FONT=&quot]I think you are just repeating the tired old skeptic’s line concerning the accusation of contradictions in the Bible. There may be passages that are difficult to understand or things which appear to contradict at a superficial glance, but upon further study and seeking God’s insight become clear, but there are no actual contradictions. Despite the number of different writers in different locations and times periods the themes of God’s moral law, human rebellion and fallen nature, and God’s plan for redemption remain consistent.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As I have pointed out the scriptures condemn and warn against humans using magick and becoming involved with occult practices and consistently show such practices to be in conflict with and inferior to the power of God the Creator.[/FONT]

Don't usually do this, but sources please.

Archeology & People in Bible

http://biblicalarcheology.net/



Archaeology and the Old Testament

“Noted archaeologist Nelson Glueck writes, "As a matter of fact, however, it may be clearly stated categorically that no archeological discovery has ever controverted a single biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible.””
Archaeology and the Old Testament | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

Startling Archeological Discoveries
From Grant R. Jeffrey's new book
The Signature of God

“In confirmation of Dr. Glueck's statement, another respected scholar, Dr. J. O. Kinnaman, declared: "Of the hundreds of thousands of artifacts found by the archeologists, not one has ever been discovered that contradicts or denies one word, phrase, clause, or sentence of the Bible, but always confirms and verifies the facts of the biblical record."
Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries


Archaeology and the Bible
By Randall Price
http://www.worldofthebible.com/Bible Studies/biblearch.pdf

This is just a silly argument. Prophesies do not count for anything. If I tell you that in the next 100 years a world power will desolve and there will be a large war, and that comes true (which is likely), I will expect your grandchildren to worship me. There are self fulfilling prophesies, prediction that will obviously come true, etc.

[FONT=&quot]

It is actually quite silly of you to believe that biblical prophecies are vague or that there is any possibility of them being easily or self-fulfilled. One fourth of Bible is prophecy containing about 1000 prophecies of which approximately 500 have been fulfilled down to the smallest specific details.[/FONT]

Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible

Reasons To Believe : Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible

Bible PropheciesFulfilled
http://www.godscare.net/Skeptic/Bible Prophecy/index.htm

I like what you have said, but the problem is that logic can show that the Christian God is not likely to exist. So you have to choose between your beliefs and logic.

[/quote]

[FONT=&quot]If your logic can show that the biblical God does not exist then it is no logic at all. The pages of the scriptures portray a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]transcendent[/FONT][FONT=&quot]God who is outside of creation, a Creator who is the One who has set the laws of the universe in place. If you eliminate or deny this biblical concept of God then you have no basis for the laws which we see in place, including the laws of logic. For example, you believe that “God” is energy and that the[/FONT][FONT=&quot] universe and all it contains including yourself, is “God”. If this is the case then there is no possible way to have a consistent standard for the laws of logic because energy is constantly in a state of change. From your perspective how do you know that the laws of logic apply everywhere, to everyone or that they will apply tomorrow as they do today?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The reality is that we see certain laws which do not change, including the laws of logic and this is compatible with the nature of God as revealed in the scriptures so I believe my beliefs line up with logic and I need not choose between the two.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I the LORD do not change… Malachi 3:6[/FONT]

 

[1137]

[FONT=&quot]If your logic can show that the biblical God does not exist then it is no logic at all. The pages of the scriptures portray a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]transcendent[/FONT][FONT=&quot] God who is outside of creation, a Creator who is the One who has set the laws of the universe in place. If you eliminate or deny this biblical concept of God then you have no basis for the laws which we see in place, including the laws of logic.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Just because it contradicts you beliefs does not make the logic invalid. If God is outside the laws of logic then logic greatly damage the idea of God. You know that age old question "could God make a stone so big even he cannot lift it"? The answer is seemingly no, which would mean that God is not all powerful. However, if we apply logic, we can realize that such a question is logically incoherent and poses absolutely no threat. So choose: a weak God or logic?

For example, you believe that “God” is energy and that the

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] universe and all it contains including yourself, is “God”. If this is the case then there is no possible way to have a consistent standard for the laws of logic because energy is constantly in a state of change.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

This is not true at all. Change is a law, so it is compatible with the other laws of nature.

From your perspective how do you know that the laws of logic apply everywhere, to everyone or that they will apply tomorrow as they do today?

[/FONT]We can know this by testing it. It is actually quite obvious. Do you even know what the laws of logic are?
1. A is A
2. Not both A and Non-A at the same time in the same respect
3. Either A or Non-A

These obviously apply equally no matter where you are. Alien beings would be bound to these laws just as they would be bound to gravity. No amount of change will make A = Non-A.

[FONT=&quot]

The reality is that we see certain laws which do not change, including the laws of logic and this is compatible with the nature of God as revealed in the scriptures so I believe my beliefs line up with logic and I need not choose between the two.

[/FONT] Yes, the laws of logic are compatible with God. However, they work the same without God, which is more basic and therefore more logical. The question is, if presented with logic against your God, would you accept the logic or your God? That is the million dollar question.