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Nothing we can do about the mass migration epidemic whilst we're EU member.

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I want to raise that job opportunities by no means universally decline as a result of immigration. The places available tend to rise with the population.

Under proper circunstances, certainly. But those circunstances are just not trivial to build and maintain. Greece, for instance, seems to be struggling with that challenge right now, and it is hardly alone.


Also, it seems unfair to group 1.6 billion people into one homogenous mass and assume that none of them will be able to functionally contribute to a society where they are the minority. I know plenty of Muslim Brits, and they're pretty damn good at working, getting educated, raising children andssocialising with Muslims and non-Muslims.

We all should pursue such goals, no doubt.


What's more, the idea that waves of immigrants are coming to the West to take advantage of the benefits system is a rather reactionary and damaging one, which is also inaccurate.

I agree.


Talk about how terrible you think Jesus and Muhammad were all you like, but it doesn't make Christianity and Islam inimical to pluralism in society in practice, as we can see in many countries where the faiths rub along just fine with each other and those of other faiths.

I'm not so sure myself. If we are talking specifically about Muslim migrants on large numbers, it would seem to me that those situations tend to arise out of some significant hazard such as war or economic disaster. Troubled people sometimes can't help but be unreasonable and territorial. And what I have learned of Islamic doctrine is anything but reassuring in this regard.

The Indian situation is a very particular one, with its own circumstances and issues.

To say nothing of incredibly complex. The language barriers alone...
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Unfortunately, I am not aware of specifics of the migration from North Africa. I just know that people pay heavily for being transported clandestinely to a European country, many die or get drowned, many are thrown into the sea by transporters (since they have already got the money), and that includes people from India too, all because of accommodating laws in Europe, which egg people to come in. It is just human trafficking. Many Sikhs from India migrated to Europe during the days of separatism when they had no particular problem in India. They were just taking the advantage of European laws. Nations have their own problems and others should not add to them.

ps. - Death toll in latest Mediterranean migrant tragedy put at 49
Reuters - ‎1 hour ago‎
MILAN Aug 16 The number of migrants who died in the hold of an overcrowded fishing boat rescued on Saturday has risen to 49, the coast guard said on Sunday.
 
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Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
We have a moral responsibilty to be compassionate do we not?

Some people have no capacity for compassion. They're the same kind of people who refer to a large group of migrants as an 'epidemic', as if they were a virus or a disease.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Unfortunately, I am not aware of specifics of the migration from North Africa. I just know that people pay heavily for being transported clandestinely to a European country, many die or get drowned, many are thrown into the sea by transporters (since they have already got the money), and that includes people from India too, all because of accommodating laws in Europe, which egg people to come in. It is just human trafficking. Many Sikhs from India migrated to Europe during the days of separatism when they had no particular problem in India. They were just taking the advantage of European laws. Nations have their own problems and others should not add to them.

ps. - Death toll in latest Mediterranean migrant tragedy put at 49
Reuters - ‎1 hour ago‎
MILAN Aug 16 The number of migrants who died in the hold of an overcrowded fishing boat rescued on Saturday has risen to 49, the coast guard said on Sunday.

I wish I knew why you take the concept of nation so utterly seriously.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"Pakistan violated the ceasefire 199* times along the International Border in Jammu and Kashmir till July 26, government had told Lok Sabha."
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/j...on-5-civilians-killed-16-injured-1040169.html

The latest attack killed six people two days ago (not counted in the above), all Muslims, including a woman and a boy of 10. Normally Pakistan targetted only Hindu majority villages. Indian forces have killed 55* terrorists. Etc. Pakistan have used heavy artillary, 122 mm (not in the above report). We are not in a situation to think of peace. All this before a meeting ostensibly for peace between two countries coming up in this month. Of course, there is no danger of a war but this constant needling. Pakistan gets nothing out of it, other than to keep the kettle boiling for international consumption. (This does not mean that we do not retaliate)
* latest yesterday's figures as reported in Indian media

21 hours, 7 hours ago, 8 hours ago, 17 hours ago, 7 hours ago, 20 hours ago, 12 hours ago, 17 hours ago (all photographs from Google images posted in the last 24 hours)
ceasefire-violation_650x400_81439745349.jpg
s-PAK-SHELLING-large.jpg
images
17lead3.jpg
images
images
_78083020_4acc7b8b-e73f-482b-b035-07ac3a4b3c4b.jpg
file-16-1439745293142362200.jpg
 
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Kirran

Premium Member
Current and ongoing warfare justified by national claims can certainly and understandably exacerbate nationalistic sentiment.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
We have a moral responsibilty to be compassionate do we not?
Some people have no capacity for compassion. They're the same kind of people who refer to a large group of migrants as an 'epidemic', as if they were a virus or a disease.
We should be compassionate, but we also have to be sensible. You could push the 'compassion' throttle to full and have complete unrestricted immigration, allow all the asylum seekers to come in and see how our public services cope. I hope you would agree that there at least must be some restriction, we cannot have an open border with everyone, can we?

A government's first priority is to its own people and to have compassion on them first. Governments are not like individuals, who from a Christian point of view are to look at others' needs above their own. Governments are there to work for the common good of their own people.

Many of the people at Calais have travelled through several safe countries to get here. This is economic migration, not fleeing for safety when they have already had multiple opportunities to claim asylum in safe countries.

And if they are economic migrants, letting them in is terribly unfair to those who are applying for work permits in this country properly and according to the law, and who aren't cutting through fences and riding lorries.
 
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Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
We should be compassionate, but we also have to be sensible. You could push the 'compassion' throttle to full and have complete unrestricted immigration, allow all the asylum seekers to come in and see how our public services cope. I hope you would agree that there at least must be some restriction, we cannot have an open border with everyone, can we?

A government's first priority is to its own people and to have compassion on them first. Governments are not like individuals, who from a Christian point of view are to look at others' needs above their own. Governments are there to work for the common good of their own people.

Many of the people at Calais have travelled through several safe countries to get here. This is economic migration, not fleeing for safety when they have already had multiple opportunities to claim asylum in safe countries.

And if they are economic migrants, letting them in is terribly unfair to those who are applying for work permits in this country properly and according to the law, and who aren't cutting through fences and riding lorries.

If the situation were reversed, you'd be doing the same.

You live in a place such as Daraa in Syria where there's no food, no medicine, rarely electricity. But certainly no jobs, no future. Your family are dead, killed by Assad loyalists, but you know you have friends in England. You speak English reasonably well. Wouldn't you want to go to England? To be with your friends, to educate yourself, medicate yourself, get a job? That's really what these people want.

And when they get here, they have nationalist scum referring to them, dehumanisingly, as an 'epidemic'.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
And when they get here, they have nationalist scum referring to them, dehumanisingly, as a'epidemic'.
Let Saudi Arabia accept them. They have all money. Let Kuwait, UAE, Bahrein, Qatar, Oman accept them. Let Azarbaizan, Iran, Pakistan, Kazakhistan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan accept them. A nationalist scum will say 'Why my country?' Is Europe in any way obligated to host them?
 
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Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Let Saudi Arabia accept them. They have all money. Let Kuwait, UAE, Bahrein, Qatar, Oman accept them. Let Azarbaizan, Iran, Pakistan, Kazakhistan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan accept them. A nationalist scum will say 'Why my country?' Is Europe in any way obligated to host them?

If your friends are in England, why would you go to Saudi Arabia?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
And what if England does not want one to come there? They will force their way in? Why should England accept these people?
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
And what if England does not want one to come there? They will force their way in? Why should England accept these people?

England doesn't mind. Nationalists are a minority, even if they are quite a vocal bunch. True Britons realise that these people are human beings, just like you.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yes, if the government does not mind people barging in, as they seemed to be during the channel break-in, who am I to complain? The current problem or any future one does not concern us.

"Mrs May's announcement comes as Eurotunnel said it has blocked more than 37,000 people attempting to cross in to the UK this year.

She added: "The key thing is to make sure we have got the security right at Coquelles and ultimately actually the answer to this problem is to ensure we are reducing the number of migrants who are trying to come from Africa across into Europe, that we break that link between making that dangerous journey, as it often is for people, and coming to settle in Europe."
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/594672/Calais-crisis-Theresa-May-migrants-reached-UK-Channel-Tunnel

"Marauding migrants brandish knives at truckers as 90 illegals-an-hour pulled from lorries"
DESPERATE drivers saw 350 migrants pulled from their lorries in just FOUR HOURS in Calais yesterday as armed refugees continued their relentless bid to reach Britain.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/586722/Calais-French-problem-chaos
 

Jeremy Taylor

Active Member
England doesn't mind. Nationalists are a minority, even if they are quite a vocal bunch. True Britons realise that these people are human beings, just like you.

This is nonsense. Immigration has been top of the polls about what people are politically concerned about for decades, and it isn't because they want more immigrants.

Mass immigration means social disruption. It means upsetting settled cultural and social frameworks, especially, as the term mass indicates, it is of a volume to make assimilation difficult. We know that New Labour realised this and tried to bring increase immigration to break up traditional social patterns that they felt favoured the Tories. There is nothing wrong with being against mass immigration.

With the immigration issues at the moment we have to differentiate, firstly, because genuine refugees and economic migrants. Contrary to what is often said, far from all the migrants trying to come to Europe and Britain are genuine refugees. There are many economic migrants, especially from Africa. But there are genuine refugees, especially from Syria and Afghanistan. However, the reasons many of these are heading to Western Europe, and are not content to stay closer to their home countries, do include economic issues. There is some argument that Britain and Northern European nations should take some of the burden, but they should do it on their own terms. Finally, refugees are fleeing conflict. They are supposed to go back after the conflict, not settle permanently, as has happened in the reason past (for example with Bosnian refugees).

It must be said, Britain's problems with migration at moment are primarily based in immigration from Eastern Europe, not with refugees, real or fake. That would be helped by leaving the idiocy of the EU.

A sternness to illegal immigrants can actually save lives, by the way. If people are put off from making dangerous journeys, often this will help them. We saw this in Australia when the Rudd government dismantled the previous government's pacific solution, only to see thousands drown at seeing. The new Abbott government has been stronger on sending out the signal that boat people will not be settled in Australia, and deaths at sea in trying to get to Australia have dwindled.

I do remember seeing that immigrant's rights groups were complaining about the fact the Australian government was sending some asylum seekers to live in Cambodia. They were making reference to the relative poverty and lack of infrastructure there. I thought this showed the obvious flaws in their reasoning. The point of being a refugee is to get away from conflict. It is not to live a Western lifestyle.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
This is nonsense. Immigration has been top of the polls about what people are politically concerned about for decades, and it isn't because they want more immigrants.

Mass immigration means social disruption. It means upsetting settled cultural and social frameworks, especially, as the term mass indicates, it is of a volume to make assimilation difficult. We know that New Labour realised this and tried to bring increase immigration to break up traditional social patterns that they felt favoured the Tories. There is nothing wrong with being against mass immigration.

With the immigration issues at the moment we have to differentiate, firstly, because genuine refugees and economic migrants. Contrary to what is often said, far from all the migrants trying to come to Europe and Britain are genuine refugees. There are many economic migrants, especially from Africa. But there are genuine refugees, especially from Syria and Afghanistan. However, the reasons many of these are heading to Western Europe, and are not content to stay closer to their home countries, do include economic issues. There is some argument that Britain and Northern European nations should take some of the burden, but they should do it on their own terms. Finally, refugees are fleeing conflict. They are supposed to go back after the conflict, not settle permanently, as has happened in the reason past (for example with Bosnian refugees).

It must be said, Britain's problems with migration at moment are primarily based in immigration from Eastern Europe, not with refugees, real or fake. That would be helped by leaving the idiocy of the EU.

A sternness to illegal immigrants can actually save lives, by the way. If people are put off from making dangerous journeys, often this will help them. We saw this in Australia when the Rudd government dismantled the previous government's pacific solution, only to see thousands drown at seeing. The new Abbott government has been stronger on sending out the signal that boat people will not be settled in Australia, and deaths at sea in trying to get to Australia have dwindled.

I do remember seeing that immigrant's rights groups were complaining about the fact the Australian government was sending some asylum seekers to live in Cambodia. They were making reference to the relative poverty and lack of infrastructure there. I thought this showed the obvious flaws in their reasoning. The point of being a refugee is to get away from conflict. It is not to live a Western lifestyle.

Yes, I understand you hate foreign people, you hate human beings. You have my pity.
 

Jeremy Taylor

Active Member
Yes, I understand you hate foreign people, you hate human beings. You have my pity.

Well argued. I must say, you have my admiration for your adept handling of both matter and style. Oh happy days that British politics has survived to be influenced by the likes of you.
 
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