1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured New Testament - can someone help please

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Te Reweti Wharepapa, Sep 11, 2017.

  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,691
    Ratings:
    +184
    Yeah, and pigs fly if you throw them out of a helicopter.
     
  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,691
    Ratings:
    +184
    I am thinking that the letter "J" is a 16th century invention. Was that the date of God's christening?
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    12,632
    Ratings:
    +6,891
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    From your link....
    "Jehovah's Witnesses believe that God has only one distinctive name, represented in the Old Testament by the tetragrammaton. In English, they prefer to use the form Jehovah. According to Jehovah's Witnesses, the name Jehovah means "He causes to become".

    Scriptures frequently cited in support of the name include Isaiah 42:8: "I am Jehovah. That is my name", Psalms 83:18: "May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth", and Exodus 6:3: "And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty, but with regard to my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them."

    While opposers of the faith critique their use of the form “Jehovah”, Jehovah’s Witnesses still hold on to their belief that -despite having scholars prefer the “Yahweh” pronunciation- the name Jehovah adequately transmits the idea behind the meaning of God’s name in English. While they don’t discourage the use of the “Yahweh” pronunciation, they highly consider the long history of the name Jehovah in the English language and see that it sufficiently identifies God’s divine persona."


    God has many titles as my brothers have mentioned...but according to scripture, he has only one NAME.

    That is just a little harsh, don't you think? My brothers do not lie. Since the pronunciation of the divine name was lost due to a Jewish superstitious practice, then we prefer the Anglicized form of the name used for centuries and already found in some English Bible translations. (see the ASV e.g.)
    We can use the transliterated form (Yahweh) if we wish, but why, when we don't really know how it was originally pronounced?

    God's name in other languages is not always "Jehovah". We prefer it because it is the English translation of the tetragrammaton. It retains the meaning, "He Causes to Be" or "to Become". It is a fitting description of the God we worship, who can "Be" or "become" whatever he needs to be to fulfill his purpose.

    Since there is no"J" in the Hebrew alphabet, changing the name of Jehovah to Yahweh would also have meant altering the names of all the Bible characters beginning with "J" to give them their names in Hebrew instead of English. People were already familiar with 'Jeremiah' 'Jehoshaphat' 'Joseph' ' Joel'...even Jesus. All these incorporated Jehovah's name in some way. To stumble over the name "Jehovah" but freely use the name "Jesus" just shows how misguided some people are. Most in Christendom believe they are one and the same person.

    God has no other "names"...he has other titles. Jesus too has lots of titles.

    I have researched on my own. I was rather appalled at what I found. The reason why Jews stopped uttering God's name for example. Was it really because it was too sacred to be uttered? Did the ancient Jews ever have that problem? Did the Bible writers have that problem if they included God's name some 7,000 times in the Hebrew scriptures?

    If God told Moses that YHWH was God's name "forever" and the name by which he was to be remembered for all generations to come (Exodus 3:14-15).....what happened? Where will I see a command from the owner of that name to cease uttering it? Or to remove it from his own word? Would a human author tolerate the removal of his name from his own work? You be the judge of how God would view such a thing.

    Perhaps you should do some research of your own? [​IMG]
     
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,324
    Ratings:
    +14,736
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    Absolutely false as any orthodox Jew would tell you because of what's found in Hebrew. Per the link I provided, God has multiple names whether you want to believe that or not, which should be absolutely clear if you actually read these names in their context.

    Oh, so they're perfect? Guess what?

    Except it is you who is saying that that the use of "Jehovah" must be accepted as accurate, whereas we know that it's not. It is you who gets on peoples' case for supposedly using the wrong name, whereas it is you who is using the wrong name according to your own blind belief. IOW, it is you who is being hypocritical.
    I've done the research undoubtedly much longer and much more thoroughly and objectively than you have, and I've made absolutely certain that I didn't allow myself to be brainwashed or join a pathetically bigoted cult. I've discussed this for several decades with the JW's who lived next to me-- nice people but not very theologically savvy, let me tell ya. I have no irons in this fire, but you certainly do, so who's not done the "research"? I've done it from numerous points of view, including your own? You certainly haven't, which is why you have lied time and time again by making what are clearly false claims, especially about the Catholic Church, such as your bold-faced lie that they worship the sun.

    And the proof in the pudding that you're essentially in a cult is that the JW leadership doesn't allow you and other JW's to even attend other religious services, for just one example-- you're a truly "captive audience". Why would they do that, Deeje? Because they really don't want you and their other blind followers to see any other position but theirs. They're leading you by your noses, effectively brainwashing you at every turn to blindlty accept their teachings while collecting your money.
     
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,691
    Ratings:
    +184
    I think the Commandment that thou shalt not take the name of the LORD they God in vain, had a definite cause and effect.
     
  6. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,796
    Ratings:
    +265
    Religion:
    Jehovah' witness

    The Hebrews didn't speak a J in their language-- Yet- all of you speak--Joshua, Job, Jeremiah with no problem but complain About the J in Jehovah
    We don't speak Hebrew.
     
  7. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,691
    Ratings:
    +184

    You fail to note that you belong to the “flock doomed for slaughter” (Zechariah 11:7), led by the “staff” “Favor”, Paul (Zechariah 11:10), which brings up the question, has using a substitution name brought you any “insight” (Daniel 12:10), or does “wickedness” such as “lawlessness” keep your eyes closed?
     
  8. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,538
    Ratings:
    +479
    Religion:
    None of the above
    If you have a reply to my post based on reason and evidence presented in a rational tone, I would be interested in reading it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,796
    Ratings:
    +265
    Religion:
    Jehovah' witness


    Wow-- Where did this come from? My destruction because I use an English J in a name. Look again please.
     
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,691
    Ratings:
    +184

    . The destruction per Zechariah 11:8, such as those being “annihilated”, is for Paul (Zechariah 11:10), Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:13), and Peter (Zechariah 11:17), whereas they are the “three shepherds” who were all “annihilated” “in one month”/generation. The “flock doomed for slaughter” were the followers of the two “staffs”, Peter and Paul. The Roman Church was built on the foundation of Peter and Paul. The daughters of the Roman church are the Protestant Churches. The problem with you using the wrong name of the LORD kind of falls under Joel 2:31, whereas you fail the test for escaping “destruction”. Your lack of “understanding” is described in Daniel 2:10, which puts you on the “broad” “way” to “destruction”(Matthew 7:13) by following the “false prophets” of Matthew 7:15 by adhering to their lawlessness. You appear to be walking a tight rope with no net. There is not going to be any “twinkling in a eye”, it is the “tares” which are “gathered up” “first” (Matthew 13:30).
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    12,632
    Ratings:
    +6,891
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Metis I am surprised at the tone of that post. You are obviously very upset because of your own beliefs about this subject. But vitriol and name-calling have no place here......emotions can make us say things we would not normally say. Please calm down and listen to reason. Can you just address the subject matter.....?

    Calling upon the name of the "LORD" obviously means that the one who bears that title has a name. There are "many gods and many lords" according to the apostle Paul. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) So to call on a title that is shared by "many" is not what is required. In quoting Joel 2:32 Paul was telling us to call on the name of YHWH....not an ambiguous, nameless "Lord".

    YHWH is a name that God revealed to man, not one that man gave to God. It is the only "name" he has.

    That name in English is "Jehovah". (Psalm 83:18 KJV) This is obviously not how the divine name is said in Hebrew. Yet in Christendom, no one seems to have any problem using the name Jesus, which is also an Anglicized form of his Hebrew name. Can you see a problem here? To them Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same God.

    We do not insist on using the Hebrew name of any other person mentioned in the Bible, yet this name is carefully avoided. Why? Because no one knows how to pronounce it. Who lost it metis? And why did they do so? Better still ask why God did not prevent it?

    God's people have always been associated with his name. Even as the shepherd boy David confronted the giant Goliath in battle, he said..... “You are coming against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I am coming against you in the name of Jehovah of armies, the God of the battle line of Israel, whom you have taunted." (1 Samuel 17:45)

    When Israel failed to recognise Jesus as Messiah, being the driving force in his murder, Jesus said that God would abandoned them as his people. (Matthew 23:37-39) Jehovah then included the Gentiles in his search for good and obedient hearts to follow the lead of his chosen representative on earth.

    "Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. (Acts 15:14) Symeon (Simon Peter) was the first one to baptize Gentiles (Cornelius and his family) as a disciples of Christ. A people for God's name have to be doing what God requires. He would not allow his name (and reputation) to be associated with those who are friends of this world. (James 4:4) Nor with those who have blood on their hands. (Isaiah 1:15)

    The facts are all there and people can make up their own minds about it. No one devoted to apostate Judaism in the first century became a disciple of Jesus. They had to separate from it. None of those people had a good thing to say about anything Jesus or his disciples said or did. (John 15:18-21) History repeats because people fail to learn the lessons from the past.

    I believe that we all need to open our minds and hearts to consider the possibilities, and what they could mean for our own future.
     
  12. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,796
    Ratings:
    +265
    Religion:
    Jehovah' witness


    Only the little flock( Luke 12:32) is promised heaven( Rev 14:3)--These are the anointed, the bride of Christ. During the tribulation, the remaining ones on earth( few) will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. They will help Jesus separate the sheep from the goats. Gog of magog raises up against the true followers at the end of the tribulation. They come to kill, as they did to Jesus and apostles and followers.
    The whole world( every kingdom on earth) Rev 16) will be mislead to stand in opposition to Jesus upon his arrival at Har-mageddon--This world is this blind right now.
    Paul was appointed by Jesus.
     
  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,691
    Ratings:
    +184

    So now you are a follower of the unknown author, assumed to be an associate of Paul, Luke. As Luke witnessed nothing (Luke 1:1-3), whose story was he passing along. (Matthew 16:18). But then again, Luke 12:33 goes onto say “sell your possessions and give to charity”, of which that part would apply in respect to (Matthew 19:21). Have you followed that path to become “complete”, or are you one of the “shepherds who have no understanding”, and “They have turned to their own way, each on to his unjust gain, to the last one” (Isaiah 56:11)?

    The “Day of the Lord”, the millennium, starts with “all of the kings of the whole world” being gathered by the “demon” spirit of the “false prophet”(Revelation 16:13), who is Paul, and who is dead, and gathering them to “Har-Magedon” (Revelation 16:13-16) to “capture” “Jerusalem” (Zechariah 14:2). The only ones raised from the dead would be “those who had not worshipped the beast and his image”(Revelation 20:4) No one escapes death, and only the dead will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible. As for the living, “every one will die for his own iniquity” (Jeremiah 31:30) Those who are not cursed, will live past 100 years old, but they will die (Isaiah 65:20).

    According to Zechariah 11:14, the commandment to “pasture the flock doomed to slaughter” was from“the LORD my God”. And he used “two staffs”, “Favor”(Zechariah 11:10), being Paul, and his gospel of unmerited favor, and “Cords”(Zechariah 11:14), being Peter, who would not care, feed, or seek the scattered (Zechariah 11:16), the “worthless shepherd”(Zechariah 11:17), and apparently taken were he didn’t want to go, and was hung upside down by his own “cords”. (John 21:15-18).
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,324
    Ratings:
    +14,736
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    As you have done many times before, you have lied. I did not use "name-calling" towards you or anyone else here. And, as usual, you divert the discussion away from what I said, instead resorting to your sermonizing. And even though I posted a non-affiliated source that clearly states that these other names for YHWH are indeed names, not just descriptors. Meanwhile, you produce no source whatsoever to support your allegation.

    I get angry because of your judgementalism and bigotry in defiance of what Jesus and Paul state, and yet you claim to believe in both. You have lied on many occasions, which I also sourced for you, and yet I've never seen you post a retraction. One example that I used whereas you did this was your repeated claim that Catholics worship the sun, which again is nothing short or a bold-faced lie. And you were shown from several sources that I linked you to, and yet all you did was to repeat your pathetic and dishonest lie. And this is not the only time you've done this.

    Instead of making the JW's look intelligent and honest, you've done them a great disservice with your actions here. You can sermonize all you want, but your actions speak louder than your words.

    At least for the time being, I'm done here, Deeje, so go right ahead and post whatever you want, inventing any distortion of my motives and m.o. that you want to resort to, and any sermons you wish to spew forth. And maybe spend some time rereading what Jesus and Paul actually taught versus what your JW leaders have taught you is morally acceptable.
     
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,691
    Ratings:
    +184

    Catholics and Protestants certainly worship the sun in the form of the sun god Sol Invictus, by keep the decree of Constantine in 321 AD, whereas all were to keep the day of the sun, Sunday, as their day of rest, and no would could buy or sell, for the shops would be closed. That in modern times is referred to the blue laws, which were first enacted by the “beast with two horns like a lamb”, Constantine.

    Constantine's law of…321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that this official solar worship, the final form of paganism in the empire…, was not the traditional Roman-Greek religion of Jupiter, Apollo, Venus, and the other Olympian deities. It was a product of the mingling Hellenistic-Oriental elements, exemplified in Aurelian's establishment of Eastern Sun worship at Rome as the official religion of the empire, and in his new temple enshrining Syrian statutes statues of Bel and the sun…. Thus at last Bel, the god of Babylon, came into the official imperial temple of Rome, the center of the imperial religion. It was this late Roman-Oriental worship of one supreme god, symbolized by the sun and absorbing lesser divinities as subordinates or manifestations of the universal deity, that competed with young Christianity. This was the Roman religion that went down in defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)

    On March 7, 321, Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed,
    [ Constantine the Great and Christianity - Wikipedia
     
  16. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,796
    Ratings:
    +265
    Religion:
    Jehovah' witness


    Paul is harmony with Jesus--You need a new teacher.
    Again you call Jesus a liar--He promised--- some of you standing here( true followers) will NEVER taste death. He was speaking of the little flock being changed in the twinkling of an eye and the great multitude that will be brought through Har-mageddon on earth.

    Your teachers have it twisted for alls destruction who listen to them.
     
  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,691
    Ratings:
    +184

    I think you should give actual quotes instead of your inaccurate version. By your adding to what is written undermines your ability to actually perceive what is actually said.

    New American Standard Bible John 11:25
    Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me will live even if he dies,”

    If you had believed in Yeshua’s testimony, and heeded it (Matthew 7:24-27), you wouldn’t be in the trouble you find yourself in.

    As for who will die? (Jeremiah 31:30),”ever one will die for his own iniquity”.

    Paul is in harmony with all men, for he is all things to all men (1 Corinthians 9:22) . The problem is that Paul is in disharmony with Yeshua, with his false gospel of grace, which is the unmerited “Favor” (Zechariah 11:10) of God. Paul’s gospel is in opposition to the gospel of the “repent; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17). Yeshua’s house is built on the “a tested stone” (the Word, which is the Law and the prophets), with “justice” “the measuring line” and “righteousness the level” (Isaiah 28:16-17). Paul’s “covenant with death shall be cancelled” (Isaiah 28:18). His message of a “twinkling of eye” is the same as his father’s, the serpent, as stated in Genesis 3:4, in that “surely you shall not die”. You have been snookered.
     
  18. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,796
    Ratings:
    +265
    Religion:
    Jehovah' witness

    Proverbs 2:21-22-- Matt 24:22-- says its you who are in error. Psalm 37:9-11,29, Matt 5:5
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2013
    Messages:
    2,691
    Ratings:
    +184

    Proverbs 2:21-22

    21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.

    22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

    Do you want to be a little more specific about your point. The “perfect” those made “complete”, who have sold their possessions and given to the poor, and have “follow me”, will “remain” in the land (Proverbs 2:21-22) & (Matthew 19:21), but what about yourself? That land, being the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37:25) , the “wicked” will live “outside the gate”(Revelation 22:15). The living “perfect” (Proverbs 2:21), shall die at no younger than 100 years (Isaiah 65:20), but they will die, for “everyone will die for his own iniquity”. Even those “made complete” (Matthew 19:21) have sinned, and will die. Twinkling for the corrupted is the message of the serpent (Genesis 3:4), and his son Paul.

    Although the “nations where I have scattered you” shall be “completely destroyed”, apparently, there will be survivors. If you crush the Roman, Greek, Babylonian, and nations of clay (Daniel 2:35), you still have survivors because the time of the great tribulation was “cut short” for the elect. The “fire, smoke, and brimstone of Revelation 9:18, only killed 1/3 of mankind. It will be the “stick of Judah” and the “stick of Israel” who will live on the land “I gave to Jacob” (Ezekiel 37:25). The nations will honor the “LORD of hosts” by coming to Jerusalem every year and celebrating the “Feast of Booths” (Zechariah 14:16). If they don’t show up, they will be cursed with “no rain will fall on them” (Zechariah 14:18). The nations will live on, but they will live on being ruled with a “rod of iron” (Revelation 19:15). There will be “strangers” among Jacob, but they will be servants (Isaiah 14:1).

    Isaiah 14:1-2,”When the LORD will have compassion on Jacob, and again choose Israel, and settle them in their own land, then strangers will join them and attach themselves to the house of Jacob….and the house of Israel will possess them”
     
  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    32,324
    Ratings:
    +14,736
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    There's a significant difference between "worship" and "veneration", and Christianity from the get-go did the latter in regards to the sun ("light") as we even see in Paul's words. This type of analogy shows up frequently in the Tanakh as well. Neither in the Jewish and Christian scriptures and traditions is the sun ever worshiped as that would be a form of idolatry.
     
Loading...