New support for the Kitniyot Liberation Front

[Jayhawker Soule]

See Rice, beans and kitniyot on Pesah - are they really forbidden?.

Thank you Rabbi David Golinkin. This year, quinoa; next year, rice and beans!

 

[metis]

I "converted" several years ago and decided to join the Sephardim in the partaking of rice.

 

[Flankerl]

Been eating rice during Pesach for about 6 years I think.

It really is one of those "that's so foreign and we don't understand it, therefore its kitniyot!"-cases.

 

[dantech]

Been eating rice during Pesach for about 6 years I think.

It really is one of those "that's so foreign and we don't understand it, therefore its kitniyot!"-cases.

The only Kitniyot we don't eat is rice. The reasoning we were always told is that rice is a poor man's food, and on Passover, we are Kings.

 

[Tumah]

I kind of felt like he built a straw man over there. He's suggesting by passages that he's quoting, that the problem with Kitniyos is that its chametz and then building an argument against that, showing that all the opinions of the Mishnah and Talmud state that rice is not chametz. Yet in the next paragraph, he mentions that he knows of 12 different reasons for the custom.

As far as I'm aware, the problem with kitniyos is not that its chametz, but that as flour, it can be confused with wheat flout and this can lead to transgressing the prohibition of chametz. Does he argue that poultry should no longer be considered meat? Its the same thing.

I don't see any reason to call it a 'mistaken custom'. The fact that there was a time when all Jews ate kitniyos is not a very remarkable argument. There was a time when Jews ate Chicken Parmesan too. With real cheese! The only issue at play is that we have "the custom of our fathers in our hands." And a person should never change from the custom. (Bava Metziah 66b)"

 

[rosends]

not taking a stand, just passing along something I read -- I haven't vetted the references but the writer is someone I know and he's pretty smart.

-------------
Chaim Steinmetz
repost, re: Kitniyot.

basically - my philosophy is this: 1. Kitniyot are a rather unusual custom, which was in dispute from the very outset. 2. kitniyot became far more significant an issue when it got entangled in the polemics of the early reform movement. 3. since kitniyot is a custom, and since avoiding more and more foods have the negative effect of reducing our enjoyment of pesach, lenient views on kitniyot should be adopted. 4. as such, the following is accepted: ingredients that are merely derived from kitniyot, such as aspartame (diet coke) and oils made from kitniyot - based on the views of rabbi isaac elchanan spector and rav kook 5. items that did not exist in 12th century Europe cannot be included in the custom, such as peanuts and quinoa - even perhaps soybeans (certainly soybean oil) . (corn is considered to be an exception to this, perhaps because cornflour is so similar to flour) -based on view of rav moshe feinstein. 6. eating non-kitniyot food cooked at a home of a sephardi (or sephardi restaurant), even if they cooked and served your (non-kitniyot) meal in pots and utensils that were used in the last 24 hours for kitniyot - based on rav ovadiah yoseph.7. I'd also allow bean corn and rice crackers baked according to the 18 minute regimen of "matza", as that is mentioned by many authorities as acceptable, but i know of no such thing being commercially produced nowadays. 8. commercial items produced in israel where a small amount of kitniyot is mixed into the larger mixture of food. - based on r. yitzchak elchanan above, and adopted by many in israel including r. nachum rabinovitch. 9. for those who are used to eating green beans in their stalks, because they are more vegetable than bean, one can rely on the view of the beit david cited by rav felder, and a similar opinion is cited by Rav Knoll in this article.

 

[Levite]

I hold with Golinkin in this case, and then some. Nobody is chayav to maintain a minhag shtut. This seems to have been a widely rejected chumra even back in olden times, and considering the requirements of product labeling and clarity of ingredients in modern Western countries, I see no reason to fear that kitniyot might be mistaken for chametz or chametz for kitniyot. Prepared kitniyot foods with Pesach hashgachah are becoming available and are good all Pesach, raw kitniyot should always be permissible to buy and prepare during Pesach, and prepared kitniyot (like canned beans) should be purchased prior to Pesach so batel b'shishim should apply if any micron of chametz accidentally got dropped into the machinery at the factory.

Moreover, I think that the sharp rise in Pesach chumras and paranoia about Pesach preparation and kashrut has become so overwhelming that it is making Pesach tirchadiche for observant Jews, and pushing non-observant Jews away from becoming more Pesach observant. We need to be more lenient, stop focusing on ridiculous extremes of kashrut, and start re-focusing on the spiritual aspects of Pesach again.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... and pushing non-observant Jews away from becoming more Pesach observant. We need to be more lenient, stop focusing on ridiculous extremes of kashrut, and start re-focusing on the spiritual aspects of Pesach again.

^ Well said.

 

[dantech]

Moreover, I think that the sharp rise in Pesach chumras and paranoia about Pesach preparation and kashrut has become so overwhelming that it is making Pesach tirchadiche for observant Jews, and pushing non-observant Jews away from becoming more Pesach observant. We need to be more lenient, stop focusing on ridiculous extremes of kashrut, and start re-focusing on the spiritual aspects of Pesach again.

The problem I have with this type of thinking is "ridiculous extremes of kashrut". You are a Rabbi who has extensive training and knowledge under his belt and who can make an informed decision on what actually is extreme, and what isn't.
Can the non-observant Jews also decide what is extreme and what isn't? For instance, when I have to explain to a non-observant Jew the laws of Borer on Shabbat, he looks at me as pretty extreme.

 

[Levite]

The problem I have with this type of thinking is "ridiculous extremes of kashrut". You are a Rabbi who has extensive training and knowledge under his belt and who can make an informed decision on what actually is extreme, and what isn't.
Can the non-observant Jews also decide what is extreme and what isn't? For instance, when I have to explain to a non-observant Jew the laws of Borer on Shabbat, he looks at me as pretty extreme.

Which, to me, is all the more reason why rabbis and other well-educated Jews should teach and lead by example in the direction I indicated.

 

[dantech]

Which, to me, is all the more reason why rabbis and other well-educated Jews should teach and lead by example in the direction I indicated.

But these non-observant Jews you speak of don't tend to go to Rabbis to learn about Kitniyot, or anything like that - at least they don't in my experience. Opening up the law to this sort of leniency will only help transgress it, IMO.

 

[Tumah]

I hold with Golinkin in this case, and then some. Nobody is chayav to maintain a minhag shtut. This seems to have been a widely rejected chumra even back in olden times, and considering the requirements of product labeling and clarity of ingredients in modern Western countries, I see no reason to fear that kitniyot might be mistaken for chametz or chametz for kitniyot. Prepared kitniyot foods with Pesach hashgachah are becoming available and are good all Pesach, raw kitniyot should always be permissible to buy and prepare during Pesach, and prepared kitniyot (like canned beans) should be purchased prior to Pesach so batel b'shishim should apply if any micron of chametz accidentally got dropped into the machinery at the factory.

Moreover, I think that the sharp rise in Pesach chumras and paranoia about Pesach preparation and kashrut has become so overwhelming that it is making Pesach tirchadiche for observant Jews, and pushing non-observant Jews away from becoming more Pesach observant. We need to be more lenient, stop focusing on ridiculous extremes of kashrut, and start re-focusing on the spiritual aspects of Pesach again.

Hmm... Golinkin and Levite says minhag shtus. Tur, Mordechai, Hagaos Maimoni and Rama says minhag. I don't know...

A tircha? There are thousands of people not eating kitniyos every Pesach. Tircha is not the problem laziness and iphones are the problem. In America of all places, you can get almost anything kitniyos free. There's really very little excuse for an Ashkenazi to eat kitniyos on Pesach.

I don't know how you see not eating kitniyos on Pesach as losing focus on the spiritual aspect of Pesach. All the time we save not buying kitniyos, we can use to learn about the holiday.

Really how afraid of putting in effort are people these days?

 

[metis]

The only Kitniyot we don't eat is rice. The reasoning we were always told is that rice is a poor man's food, and on Passover, we are Kings.

My wife dethroned me a long time ago, so I eat rice.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Opening up the law to this sort of leniency will only help transgress it, IMO.

As with the Sephardim? Or is this tendency to transgress an Ashkenazi propensity?

We live in a world where people denied green beans have ready access to kosher l'pesach hotdog buns - great theological lesson to the non-observant.

 

[Tumah]

As with the Sephardim? Or is this tendency to transgress an Ashkenazi propensity?

We live in a world where people denied green beans have ready access to kosher l'pesach hotdog buns - great theological lesson to the non-observant.

Well, teaching people to transgress customs in general could lead to transgressing halacha.

And your second point is not an argument against eating kitnyos, its an argument against making kosher l'Pesach hot dog buns.

 

[metis]

OK, this thread has been too lame (I nodded off several times already), so let me liven it up a bit: Does God really care that much about what we eat?


[Me'tis runs like hell for the exit]

 

[dantech]

As with the Sephardim? Or is this tendency to transgress an Ashkenazi propensity?

I'm not differentiating. I'm saying that any sort of barrier, will help people avoid the true sin. Any sort of leniency (removal of this barrier), helps make it okay to transgress.
In this particular case though, Sephardim aren't as affected because Kitniyot isn't as big an issue for us.

We live in a world where people denied green beans have ready access to kosher l'pesach hotdog buns - great lesson to the non-observant.

I see what you're saying, and I get it. It's a difficult problem. I just think that the average non-observant Jew doesn't necessarily know the reasoning behind why one is Chametz and why the other isn't. I know of many observant Jews who sometimes confuse Halakha and Minhag. Non-observant Jews are that much more vulnerable to mistakes.

 

[dantech]

[Me'tis runs to hell for the exit]

There, I fixed it for you

 

[metis]

There, I fixed it for you

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I just think that the average non-observant Jew doesn't necessarily know the reasoning behind why one is Chametz and why the other isn't.

Then teach.