New support for the Kitniyot Liberation Front

[dantech]

Then teach.

Not everybody wants to learn, unfortunately.

 

[Levite]

Hmm... Golinkin and Levite says minhag shtus. Tur, Mordechai, Hagaos Maimoni and Rama says minhag. I don't know...

A tircha? There are thousands of people not eating kitniyos every Pesach. Tircha is not the problem laziness and iphones are the problem. In America of all places, you can get almost anything kitniyos free. There's really very little excuse for an Ashkenazi to eat kitniyos on Pesach.

I don't know how you see not eating kitniyos on Pesach as losing focus on the spiritual aspect of Pesach. All the time we save not buying kitniyos, we can use to learn about the holiday.

Really how afraid of putting in effort are people these days?

Actually, Golinkin and Levite are just quoting Rabbenu Yerucham who says it's minhag shtut, along with the Tosafist Rabbi Shmuel ben Shlomo of Falaise who said it's minhag ta'ut.

The only mention of avoiding kitniyot in the Talmud and Midrash Halachah is to discount its necessity, with the exception of R' Yochanan b. Nuri, and the Gemara explicitly says we don't follow him. The Gaonim explicitly permit kitniyot. Rif, Rabbenu Chananel, and Rambam permit. And so forth. It's a minhag without reason or basis. That is the very definition of minhag ta'ut. It is counterproductive and needlessly strict at a time when we are already inundated with strictness. That could be the very definition minhag shtut.

For that matter, the Tur says explicitly (Orach Chayim 453) that while one cannot make matzot out of kitniyot, it is permitted to cook and eat them (אבל לא בארז ושאר מיני קטניות, וגם אינם באים לידי חמוץ ומתר לעשות מהם תבשיל).

The Chacham Tzvi, according to R' Yakov Emden, held that the minhag not to eat kitniyot was a chumra without any sense at all, pernicious, and that it should be eliminated forthwith.

In any case, I believe that when we are dealing with chumradiche minhagim that come to us with weak reasoning or no reasonable foundation, we should not approach them from the position of having to find excuses not to perpetuate them, but from the position of requiring better reasons to perpetuate them then simply "that's how it's been done for a while in certain communities."

Clinging to ridiculous chumrot with the excuse that those who don't are lazy is utterly without merit. It is not even worth considering.

But these non-observant Jews you speak of don't tend to go to Rabbis to learn about Kitniyot, or anything like that - at least they don't in my experience. Opening up the law to this sort of leniency will only help transgress it, IMO.

The Jews who are still on the fringes of observance do, in fact, ask their rabbis questions about how to observe Pesach properly. I myself have fielded dozens of questions over the last couple of weeks from my small, very normal little congregation, some from people whose observance is quite tenuous in many areas.

Considering that there are actual issurim, and chumrot of real merit that we must teach such Jews actually are necessary, I think it is of critical importance to show that we are not just universally strict, or strict for the sake of being strict, but that we can be lenient when there is room, and when we must be strict, it is for important reasons. In my professional experience, people respond to nuance, and they respond to learning that halachah can be flexible, and they respond to learning that the times the halachah expects strictness will be balanced by times the halachah allows leniency.

 

[dantech]

The only mention of avoiding kitniyot in the Talmud and Midrash Halachah is to discount its necessity, with the exception of R' Yochanan b. Nuri, and the Gemara explicitly says we don't follow him. The Gaonim explicitly permit kitniyot. Rif, Rabbenu Chananel, and Rambam permit. And so forth. It's a minhag without reason or basis.

It's not quite without basis, but I mostly agree with you. I just think it's difficult justify letting go of a minhag that huge gedolim didn't, in recent times.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In any case, I believe that when we are dealing with chumradiche minhagim that come to us with weak reasoning or no reasonable foundation, we should not approach them from the position of having to find excuses not to perpetuate them, but from the position of requiring better reasons to perpetuate them then simply "that's how it's been done for a while in certain communities."

Clinging to ridiculous chumrot with the excuse that those who don't are lazy is utterly without merit. It is not even worth considering.

Excellent!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I just think it's difficult justify letting go of a minhag that huge gedolim didn't, in recent times.

IMO this too has merit (although huge gedolim strikes me as a bit redundant).

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Clinging to ridiculous chumrot with the excuse that those who don't are lazy is utterly without merit. It is not even worth considering.

Indeed, the main victims of chumradiche minhagim are the fence-sitters.

(sorry about that)​

 

[Tumah]

Actually, Golinkin and Levite are just quoting Rabbenu Yerucham who says it's minhag shtut, along with the Tosafist Rabbi Shmuel ben Shlomo of Falaise who said it's minhag ta'ut.

Yes, I read the linked article. And I'm sure the people that descend from their communities today don't eat kitniyos unless they later joined communities that do. That doesn't mean it becomes a minhag taos for everyone. And for those that descend from communities where it is the minhag, its a minhag.

The only mention of avoiding kitniyot in the Talmud and Midrash Halachah is to discount its necessity, with the exception of R' Yochanan b. Nuri, and the Gemara explicitly says we don't follow him. The Gaonim explicitly permit kitniyot. Rif, Rabbenu Chananel, and Rambam permit. And so forth. It's a minhag without reason or basis. That is the very definition of minhag ta'ut. It is counterproductive and needlessly strict at a time when we are already inundated with strictness. That could be the very definition minhag shtut.

Have you actually seen that gemarah?

מתניתין דלא כרבי יוחנן בן נורי דאמר אורז מין דגן הוא וחייבין על חימוצו כרת דתניא רבי יוחנן בן נורי אוסר באורז ודוחן מפני שקרוב להחמיץ​

He's talking about whether rice is assur for being chametz. The minhag for not eating kitniyos is not a chumrah of chometz. This gemarah has no relevancy.
The fact that earlier Geonim and Rishonim allowed it, does not detract from the validity of the minhag. In the time of the Mishnah, they ate chicken with dairy. Do you? The author of the article quoted by Jayhawker mentioned he knew of 12 reasons for it. How can you call that a minhag shtus?? That doesn't make any sense!

For that matter, the Tur says explicitly (Orach Chayim 453) that while one cannot make matzot out of kitniyot, it is permitted to cook and eat them (אבל לא בארז ושאר מיני קטניות, וגם אינם באים לידי חמוץ ומתר לעשות מהם תבשיל).

Yeah I saw that. But I see in the Rama they bring the Tur as well. If I have time tomorrow I'll look in the Rosh.
הגה: ויש אוסרים (טור והגהות מיימוני פרק ה' ומרדכי פרק כל שעה) והמנהג באשכנז להחמיר ואין לשנות

The Chacham Tzvi, according to R' Yakov Emden, held that the minhag not to eat kitniyot was a chumra without any sense at all, pernicious, and that it should be eliminated forthwith.

And I'm sure his time among the Sephardim played a role in that decision.
But now you are talking Achronim. And there are plenty that upheld the minhag.

In any case, I believe that when we are dealing with chumradiche minhagim that come to us with weak reasoning or no reasonable foundation, we should not approach them from the position of having to find excuses not to perpetuate them, but from the position of requiring better reasons to perpetuate them then simply "that's how it's been done for a while in certain communities."

Clinging to ridiculous chumrot with the excuse that those who don't are lazy is utterly without merit. It is not even worth considering.

That is the exact opposite of what we are supposed to do.
When we have a minhag, especially one that is bought in Rishonim we should search for reasons to uphold it. Like the Tur says in other places, "מנהג אבותינו תורה היא ואין לשנות"

Like the Chasam Sofer says: ומזה ידין איך לא ידין לעצמו לפשוט יד במנהגי ׳שראל כי אותם שהוא חושב מנהג בורות הם בארות חצובין ממקור מים חיים
Even Tosfos gives minhag as one of the reasons for keeping two days of yomtov.

 

[Tumah]

Its Chumradig, or when you are attatching it to another word, chumradige. Not chumradiche. Do you say chutzpadiche?

 

[dantech]

IMO this too has merit (although huge gedolim strikes me as a bit redundant).

It's not redundant.

Spoiler: You got the big guys...

Spoiler: And then you got the really BIG guys....

 

[Levite]

Yes, I read the linked article. And I'm sure the people that descend from their communities today don't eat kitniyos unless they later joined communities that do. That doesn't mean it becomes a minhag taos for everyone. And for those that descend from communities where it is the minhag, its a minhag.

A minhag ta'ut or minhag shtut should be changed. It should not be adhered to merely because it has been followed.

The fact that earlier Geonim and Rishonim allowed it, does not detract from the validity of the minhag. In the time of the Mishnah, they ate chicken with dairy. Do you? The author of the article quoted by Jayhawker mentioned he knew of 12 reasons for it. How can you call that a minhag shtus?? That doesn't make any sense!

He noted that he had heard twelve reasons proposed to try and explain the minhag. Not that any of the proposed reasons held any water.

Chicken with dairy is entirely different. There is a takkanah d'rabbanan making it a matter of halachah psukah. It is not in any way a minhag.

Yeah I saw that. But I see in the Rama they bring the Tur as well. If I have time tomorrow I'll look in the Rosh.
הגה: ויש אוסרים (טור והגהות מיימוני פרק ה' ומרדכי פרק כל שעה) והמנהג באשכנז להחמיר ואין לשנות

And I'm not holding by the Rama here. I thought we were clear on that.

But now you are talking Achronim. And there are plenty that upheld the minhag.

And who didn't. I have no obligation to hold by an opinion that I believe is incorrect if there are other opinions on which to rely. In fact, according to the Rosh, even if there are no precedent opinions, a rav can rule as he thinks is correct and needful because he is hashofet asher yihyeh....

That is the exact opposite of what we are supposed to do.
When we have a minhag, especially one that is bought in Rishonim we should search for reasons to uphold it. Like the Tur says in other places, "מנהג אבותינו תורה היא ואין לשנות"

Like the Chasam Sofer says: ומזה ידין איך לא ידין לעצמו לפשוט יד במנהגי ׳שראל כי אותם שהוא חושב מנהג בורות הם בארות חצובין ממקור מים חיים
Even Tosfos gives minhag as one of the reasons for keeping two days of yomtov.

First of all, the sun will rise in the west and set in the east before I go by the Chasam Sofer. On anything. I think his entire conception of halachah and his theology of Judaism is toxic.

Second of all, I am not suggesting that we reject all minhagim universally and not go by them. I am suggesting that if a minhag seems absurd and counterproductive, and there are only weak reasons given for it, or no real reasons at all-- in other words, if it seems like a likely candidate for being a minhag shtut or minhag ta'ut-- we should not presume it should be kept merely because it is a minhag that exists, we should look for reasons why it ought to be kept, and if none seem to be there, we should reject it in favor of a different minhag or another way of following the halachah.

Many, if not most, minhagim have some sense behind them, or have reasonable explanations given for them, or clearly serve a positive purpose. Those should be followed.

And even weak minhagim that might be on the line of minhagei shtut can still be taken on by individuals as self-imposed chumrot. I just think such minhagim should not be default expectations of whole communities.

 

[Tumah]

A minhag ta'ut or minhag shtut should be changed. It should not be adhered to merely because it has been followed.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying when a minhag is sanctioned by Rishonim that in itself disqualifies it as a minhag shtus. At the very least, for his own communities. And those communities' descendants are bound to that minhag.

He noted that he had heard twelve reasons proposed to try and explain the minhag. Not that any of the proposed reasons held any water.

It would be nice if he mentione what they were. But I just saw last night brought down from the Pri Migadim that in his community when the rice was checked well three times, they would still find kernels of wheat on the fourth. That is a reason not to eat rice on Pesach for those that have that minhag. And even if this is no longer true, once the minhag is correctly in place, we can't change it, as we see from the first Tosfos in Taanis. And that can be a plausible reason for all other types of Kitniyos.

Chicken with dairy is entirely different. There is a takkanah d'rabbanan making it a matter of halachah psukah. It is not in any way a minhag.

That's not what I meant. I was saying that the reason for the takanah is the same as the reason for the minhag of kitniyos. In one of its forms people can mistake it for something assur.

And I'm not holding by the Rama here. I thought we were clear on that.

Yes, I'm familiar with your kulah shopping. But I was only showing that even if their are opinions that disagree, the fact that the Rema says to maintain that minhag implies that he did see a reason for it. Theoretically, he was also familiar with what constitutes a minhag shtus and believed that the reasons for calling it so, didn't apply here.

And who didn't. I have no obligation to hold by an opinion that I believe is incorrect if there are other opinions on which to rely. In fact, according to the Rosh, even if there are no precedent opinions, a rav can rule as he thinks is correct and needful because he is hashofet asher yihyeh....

But you don't know that it is incorrect, because you don't know the reason why it was conceived, since one ever provide such a record. Then you fall into the trap the Chassam Sofer describes.

First of all, the sun will rise in the west and set in the east before I go by the Chasam Sofer. On anything. I think his entire conception of halachah and his theology of Judaism is toxic.

Second of all, I am not suggesting that we reject all minhagim universally and not go by them. I am suggesting that if a minhag seems absurd and counterproductive, and there are only weak reasons given for it, or no real reasons at all-- in other words, if it seems like a likely candidate for being a minhag shtut or minhag ta'ut-- we should not presume it should be kept merely because it is a minhag that exists, we should look for reasons why it ought to be kept, and if none seem to be there, we should reject it in favor of a different minhag or another way of following the halachah.

I think rejecting a concept stated by the Chassam Sofer simply because he's the Chassam Sofer, is immature.
Either way, I have already stated two reasons why the minhag may have been conceived.
1. In some places (as in the case of the Pri Megadim) they would still find wheat in their kitniyos even after thorough checking.
2. In some places these items were more prone to being confused with flour. Like an אטו

Once these minhag were started for correct reasons, even though those reason no longer apply, as the example given with Tosfos.
גזרה שמא יחזור הדבר לקלקולו או משום מנהג אבותינו בידינו

Many, if not most, minhagim have some sense behind them, or have reasonable explanations given for them, or clearly serve a positive purpose. Those should be followed.

And even weak minhagim that might be on the line of minhagei shtut can still be taken on by individuals as self-imposed chumrot. I just think such minhagim should not be default expectations of whole communities.

I've never heard of someone making a minhag into a chumrah. Chumros are related to halacha not minhag.

 

[dantech]

@Tumah, I wonder... If I pour some sort of kitniyot (corn starch) all over your home's door knob on Passover, will you be stuck inside for the remainder of the holiday?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying when a minhag is sanctioned by Rishonim that in itself disqualifies it as a minhag shtus. At the very least, for his own communities. And those communities' descendants are bound to that minhag.

Rishonim were incapable of what might later be recognized as nonsense?

 

[Tumah]

@Tumah, I wonder... If I pour some sort of kitniyot (corn starch) all over your home's door knob on Passover, will you be stuck inside for the remainder of the holiday?

On the inside or the outside?

I'm kidding. I would just wash the doorknob off.

 

[Tumah]

Rishonim were incapable of what might later be recognized as nonsense?

Well that's without a question.
But also relevant is that as they were closer to the inception of the custom, they were more likely to be aware of the reason for it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Rishonim were incapable of what might later be recognized as nonsense?

Well that's without a question.

For you.

But also relevant is that as they were closer to the inception of the custom, they were more likely to be aware of the reason for it.

Which is no guarantee of the quality of the knowledge upon which the reason was based.

 

[dantech]

On the inside or the outside?

I'm kidding. I would just wash the doorknob off.

You would wash it? But then it would be gebrochts!

Oyoyoy... Lo aleinu!

 

[rosends]

I think doorknobs require libun gamur

 

[Flankerl]

Burn the door down.
Problem solved.


58th century wisdom, a new time calls for new answers. - The newest book of Flankerl your go-to girl concerning theological dilemmas. Only 120$ because you can't measure wisdom with money, but you can try.

 

[Tumah]

You would wash it? But then it would be gebrochts!

Oyoyoy... Lo aleinu!

Haha. It's a good thing kitniyos can't really become gebrochts. I don't know which would be worse!

I think doorknobs require libun gamur

Overkill? There's no such thing.