"Never take counsel from those who do not believe" ?

[Quintessence]

How could the intent to keep others ignorant and isolated, thereby robbing them of agency and autonomy, be seen as anything else? What motive could there be other than to hold power over others?

Why do you assume this is the intent of preserving one's culture from outside corruption or change? Why do you paint keeping to one's traditions as being robbed of agency and autonomy? Why do you believe that and who taught you that?

Sharing it is an empowering gift. Knowledge only threatens deceit and falsehoods, which only hold people down and their cultures back.

But it just isn't true that knowledge only threatens what you believe to be deceit and falsehoods; it's not even that hard to think of examples that counter this. The impact knowledge has on peoples and cultures is really not as straightforward as you're presenting here. Social trends and cultural traditions - both ones you favor or those you disfavor - all spread through knowledge and information.

 

[Father Heathen]

Why do you assume this is the intent of preserving one's culture from outside corruption or change? Why do you paint keeping to one's traditions as being robbed of agency and autonomy? Why do you believe that and who taught you that?

As I've stated, I have no problem with people following or practicing whatever culture or traditions they wish, as long as it's by their own choice. What I take issue with is when people are kept isolated and ignorant by others as a means to maintain control over them.

But it just isn't true that knowledge only threatens what you believe to be deceit and falsehoods; it's not even that hard to think of examples that counter this. The impact knowledge has on peoples and cultures is really not as straightforward as you're presenting here. Social trends and cultural traditions - both ones you favor or those you disfavor - all spread through knowledge and information.

Critical thinking - another empowering tool - should work as a filter.

 

[Quintessence]

As I've stated, I have no problem with people following or practicing whatever culture or traditions they wish, as long as it's by their own choice. What I take issue with is when people are kept isolated and ignorant by others as a means to maintain control over them.

Fair enough. I'm not sure how common that really is. I'm sure there's some good sociological research about it out there if we wanted to delve into it some time.

Critical thinking - another empowering tool - should work as a filter.

Maybe, yeah. I think the more important filter, though, are our own cultural biases and heuristics. Ya know, that thing where we ignore information that doesn't match our presupposed conceptions? Happens to everybody, more or less, in no small part to preserve our sense of identity and self. After all, with no boundaries, sense of self gets compromised. I remember knowing a few folks like that - just whatever came their way was the thing they did and they didn't seem to have much of an identity of their own. It was interesting. Extreme "go with the flow" to the point they didn't have their own flow.

 

[Father Heathen]

Fair enough. I'm not sure how common that really is. I'm sure there's some good sociological research about it out there if we wanted to delve into it some time.

Maybe, yeah. I think the more important filter, though, are our own cultural biases and heuristics. Ya know, that thing where we ignore information that doesn't match our presupposed conceptions? Happens to everybody, more or less, in no small part to preserve our sense of identity and self. After all, with no boundaries, sense of self gets compromised. I remember knowing a few folks like that - just whatever came their way was the thing they did and they didn't seem to have much of an identity of their own. It was interesting. Extreme "go with the flow" to the point they didn't have their own flow.

From my POV, culture is a living and fluid thing. It evolves, branches, merges, influences, is influenced, spreads, and wanes. They're a messy, ever changing Venn diagram. Take any culture today, and then compare it to itself from decades or centuries past, and it isn't the same. It's sort of like how rivers change their shape and course through avulsion and such. The one constant beneath all cultures, past and present, is human nature.

 

[idea]

Fair enough. I'm not sure how common that really is. I'm sure there's some good sociological research about it out there if we wanted to delve into it some time.

Maybe, yeah. I think the more important filter, though, are our own cultural biases and heuristics. Ya know, that thing where we ignore information that doesn't match our presupposed conceptions? Happens to everybody, more or less, in no small part to preserve our sense of identity and self. After all, with no boundaries, sense of self gets compromised. I remember knowing a few folks like that - just whatever came their way was the thing they did and they didn't seem to have much of an identity of their own. It was interesting. Extreme "go with the flow" to the point they didn't have their own flow.

A good identity to have is - someone who is flexible, someone who explores, someone who easily changes, someone who is a lifelong student, lifelong learner, who is growing, changing, fluid → that in itself is an identity.

Go with the flow.
Once there lived a village of creatures along the bottom of a great crystal river. The current of the river swept silently over them all -- young and old, rich and poor, good and evil -- the current going its own way, knowing only its own crystal self.
Each creature in its own manner clung tightly to the twigs and rocks of the river bottom, for clinging was their way of life, and resisting the current was what each had learned from birth.

But one creature said at last, "I am tired of clinging. Though I cannot see it with my eyes, I trust that the current knows where it is going. I shall let go, and let it take me where it will. Clinging, I shall die of boredom."

The other creatures laughed and said, "Fool! Let go, and that current you worship will throw you tumbled and smashed against the rocks, and you will die quicker than boredom!"

But the one heeded them not, and taking a breath did let go, and at once was tumbled and smashed by the current across the rocks.

Yet in time, as the creature refused to cling again, the current lifted him free from the bottom, and he was bruised and hurt no more.

And the creatures downstream, to whom he was a stranger, cried, "See a miracle! A creature like ourselves, yet he flies! See the messiah, come to save us all!"

And the one carried in the current said, "I am no more messiah than you. The river delights to lift us free, if only we dare let go. Our true work is this voyage, this adventure."

But they cried the more, "Savior!" all the while clinging to the rocks, and when they looked again he was gone, and they were left alone making legends of a savior.

-- from Illusions by Richard Bach

 

[Quintessence]

A good identity to have is - someone who is flexible, someone who explores, someone who easily changes, someone who is a lifelong student, lifelong learner, who is growing, changing, fluid → that in itself is an identity.

There are many "good identities" to have. And if there was not diversity in these identities, the very exploration cherished by these statements would be diminished by lessened variations. Keep in mind I'm saying this as someone who was raised by educators and personally values the Spirit of Learning on a deeply religious level. I acknowledge that isn't for everyone, and the world would be poorer for it if everyone thought the same as me. It would mean less human diversity to explore and learn from.

 

[Watchmen]

Trying to be fair...the word counsel could mean spiritual questions related counsel too. Your generalization of his advice regarding counsel into all aspects of life may not be warranted.

The whole talk can be found here: Think Celestial!

While the line at issue seems to involve morality, the talk also has my references to “think celestial” when confronted with life’s issues, including grief, addiction, illness, and so on. Poor advice in my opinion. Many people cling tightly to religious beliefs when they actually need professional help.

 

[Vinayaka]

At the recent Mormon General con their president told members "Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from prophets, seers and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost."

So...
don't listen to your doctor if he has a different faith than you.
don't listen to a police officer / fire fighter / emergency responder if they have different religious beliefs than you.
if a member of your family has a different belief, don't listen to them.
if a book/news article/journal was written by someone with a different belief, don't read it.

information control is part of the b.i.t.e. model.

For all the religious and non-religious people here, how much do you trust someone's secular education / career expertise as opposed to following the pope/bishop/church?

If your church tells you - no blood transfusions, and doc says your kid needs it?
If your church tells you to gather at their temple, and the weather guy has it mapped as a flood location - do you follow flood zone maps, or your local leader?
If your church tells you evolution isn't true... the world is only 6000 years old.... tells you god gave you this land... tells you abortion clinics are evil - do you blow it up?

Here's my bias - I did research and find an atheist therapist for kids abused by a Mormon leader. No way in hell was I going to subject them to religious rationalization and additional emotional manipulation by a religiously affiliated therapist whose bias was to protect the church and church leaders. Have to admit, there are some professionals I trust more than others. Data based decision on all as much as I can.

Depends on the topic. On medicine, I see my doctor. I take my car to my trusted mechanic. I ask my Guru questions on spiritual matters, like whether or not a particular action is karma, etc. The best advisor is the guy who can send you to a better advisor.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Trying to be fair...the word counsel could mean spiritual questions related counsel too. Your generalization of his advice regarding counsel into all aspects of life may not be warranted.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 1 Corinthians 10:31.
I can't speak for Mormons accurately, bit the generalization is probably warranted. Those who don't believe, be they atheists or believers in other religions, are objects of hatred in the Bible. To take council with them, even in things that seem small, is to unvite ungodly and godless influences in to your life. Amd to a rigidly conservative believer that is something to be outright avoided.

 

[idea]

Depends on the topic. On medicine, I see my doctor. I take my car to my trusted mechanic. I ask my Guru questions on spiritual matters, like whether or not a particular action is karma, etc. The best advisor is the guy who can send you to a better advisor.

I think the best advisor provides a summary of many diverse views, along with their own.

 

[Audie]

I think the best advisor provides a summary of many diverse views, along with their own.

"AdvisorS"

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I didn't realize that you lived in Texas. But, moving on, ...

I do not have a therapist, but, at my age, I've acquired a fair number of excellent doctors, and I don't know the religious views of any of them.

Interesting. I've had 2 general physicians over the last 40 years, both female, both Jewish. My dentist, who is great (I'm bad at dentists) is also a female, strongly Catholic. Neither their genders nor their religions has anything to do with why I chose them, and stay with them.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Neither their genders nor their religions has anything to do with why I chose them, and stay with them.

I just check to make sure he or she is not Canadian and then just roll the dice.​

 

[danieldemol]

I see people commenting on matters of expertise here, and I think there would be some validity to that if an expert in Mormonism could be said to be an expert in spirituality.

The problem as I see it is the Mormon president expects Catholics and all other religious people to take spiritual counsel with him even though he is not an expert on their religion's, so on one hand their is his hypocrisy, but I think more importantly is that unlike say with a mechanic or an engineer who gets a universally recognised form of training, in spiritual matters we have no way of knowing who the spiritual experts are since there are many competing claims eg the Pope, Khomeini, the Mormon president and others too numerous to mention.

So in the face of competing claims surely we should be seeking the spiritual counsel of more than just our own leader so we can try to determine for ourselves which if any of these leaders are authentic experts in my view.

And in the absence of universally recognised experts which one constitutes an authentic expert should be our own choice. NOT pre-chosen by indoctrination from a leader such as the Mormon president who wants non-Mormons to take spiritual counsel with him then shut the door to the return journey as I see it.

 

[InChrist]

At the recent Mormon General con their president told members "Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from prophets, seers and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost."

So...
don't listen to your doctor if he has a different faith than you.
don't listen to a police officer / fire fighter / emergency responder if they have different religious beliefs than you.
if a member of your family has a different belief, don't listen to them.
if a book/news article/journal was written by someone with a different belief, don't read it.

information control is part of the b.i.t.e. model.

For all the religious and non-religious people here, how much do you trust someone's secular education / career expertise as opposed to following the pope/bishop/church?

If your church tells you - no blood transfusions, and doc says your kid needs it?
If your church tells you to gather at their temple, and the weather guy has it mapped as a flood location - do you follow flood zone maps, or your local leader?
If your church tells you evolution isn't true... the world is only 6000 years old.... tells you god gave you this land... tells you abortion clinics are evil - do you blow it up?

Here's my bias - I did research and find an atheist therapist for kids abused by a Mormon leader. No way in hell was I going to subject them to religious rationalization and additional emotional manipulation by a religiously affiliated therapist whose bias was to protect the church and church leaders. Have to admit, there are some professionals I trust more than others. Data based decision on all as much as I can.

I remember such instruction and warnings when in the Mormon church years ago, even about reading any other religious or spiritual material. I haven’t experienced this type of thing in the Christian churches I’ve been involved with, yet I am aware there are such churches. As well as churches were abuse is covered up or blamed on the victims. There are some excellent resources and ministries that deal with this kind of abuse in religious/church environments.

The following one was started by a pastor’s son. He turned his own father in, who is now in prison, when he discovered his father had been abusing kids for years. He now offers a service to educate churches In awareness and prevention of abuse.

Abuse Prevention

Blogging, podcasts, and trainings for preventing child sexual abuse.

jimmyhinton.org

The next one is for helping women find freedom and safety from abusive marriages or other situations.

About Flying Free

We help Christian women in painful or confusing marriages find clarity and healing so they can make healthy decisions for themselves and their children.

www.flyingfreenow.com

 

[idea]

I remember such instruction and warnings when in the Mormon church years ago, even about reading any other religious or spiritual material. I haven’t experienced this type of thing in the Christian churches I’ve been involved with, yet I am aware there are such churches. As well as churches were abuse is covered up or blamed on the victims. There are some excellent resources and ministries that deal with this kind of abuse in religious/church environments.

The following one was started by a pastor’s son. He turned his own father in, who is now in prison, when he discovered his father had been abusing kids for years. He now offers a service to educate churches In awareness and prevention of abuse.

Abuse Prevention

Blogging, podcasts, and trainings for preventing child sexual abuse.

jimmyhinton.org

The next one is for helping women find freedom and safety from abusive marriages or other situations.

About Flying Free

We help Christian women in painful or confusing marriages find clarity and healing so they can make healthy decisions for themselves and their children.

www.flyingfreenow.com

I'm one of the lucky females who has a degree and good job. Education is my Savior. So many are trapped by the religious roles. I now see as most healthy when women share the role of protectors (consider how many men are in jail), women share the role of provider, and men share role of nurturing helpmate. Equally yoked.

Non-affiliated for me, no more group think if I can help it. My community is my work - career and volunteer work.

Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate - hope gatherings with family are going well for everyone.