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"Never take counsel from those who do not believe" ?

idea

Question Everything
At the recent Mormon General con their president told members "Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from prophets, seers and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost."

So...
don't listen to your doctor if he has a different faith than you.
don't listen to a police officer / fire fighter / emergency responder if they have different religious beliefs than you.
if a member of your family has a different belief, don't listen to them.
if a book/news article/journal was written by someone with a different belief, don't read it.

information control is part of the b.i.t.e. model.

For all the religious and non-religious people here, how much do you trust someone's secular education / career expertise as opposed to following the pope/bishop/church?

If your church tells you - no blood transfusions, and doc says your kid needs it?
If your church tells you to gather at their temple, and the weather guy has it mapped as a flood location - do you follow flood zone maps, or your local leader?
If your church tells you evolution isn't true... the world is only 6000 years old.... tells you god gave you this land... tells you abortion clinics are evil - do you blow it up?

Here's my bias - I did research and find an atheist therapist for kids abused by a Mormon leader. No way in hell was I going to subject them to religious rationalization and additional emotional manipulation by a religiously affiliated therapist whose bias was to protect the church and church leaders. Have to admit, there are some professionals I trust more than others. Data based decision on all as much as I can.
 

idea

Question Everything
How did you undertake that effort?

Just like some businesses advertise their faith, atheists do too.

example: Find Secular and Non-Religious Therapists and Psychologists in Houston, TX - Psychology Today

I asked around. If you have an LGBTQ kid, or a kid molested by a church leader - the worst thing you can do is send them to a Christian "therapist".

It's a common thing - so anyone else out there reading this, if you are involved in a religious-leader pedophile situation, do NOT accept any so-called help your church tries to give. They are NOT there to help victims, they are there to protect themselves. Their "therapist" is there to blame victims, re-victimize them, tell victims they are the ones insane, tell victims they are making it up, tell victims they are liars (not the bishop/ stake president/boy scout/elders president). Don't use any "service" from the church. None of them are your friend.

He's in jail.
Secular friends helped put him there despite the best efforts of the Mormon church to cover up and manipulate.
Lawyer, Judge, jury, detective - found trustworthy atheists to counsel and help.


If it is a religious dentist (with good track record), religious person working at the bank etc.... that is fine - we all need to work with everyone from different beliefs and backgrounds. It is good to understand bias though, and go to the right source for some information.

An all encompassing statement though - reject all counsel from anyone who doesn't hold your belief? "Never"? A rather strong statement that was made this weekend by the leader of the Mormon church. a bit cult like.
 
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idea

Question Everything
I didn't realize that you lived in Texas. :( But, moving on, ...

I do not have a therapist, but, at my age, I've acquired a fair number of excellent doctors, and I don't know the religious views of any of them.

Me too - I don't know the religious views of most people I work with - and take counsel from. If they are good in their jobs, have a good track record, of course we all need to listen and take counsel from one another.

Control of information - don't listen to critics? I read the 1-star reviews first before purchasing anything ;)
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
At the recent Mormon General con their president told members "Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from prophets, seers and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost."

So...
don't listen to your doctor if he has a different faith than you.
don't listen to a police officer / fire fighter / emergency responder if they have different religious beliefs than you.
if a member of your family has a different belief, don't listen to them.
if a book/news article/journal was written by someone with a different belief, don't read it.

information control is part of the b.i.t.e. model.

For all the religious and non-religious people here, how much do you trust someone's secular education / career expertise as opposed to following the pope/bishop/church?

If your church tells you - no blood transfusions, and doc says your kid needs it?
If your church tells you to gather at their temple, and the weather guy has it mapped as a flood location - do you follow flood zone maps, or your local leader?
If your church tells you evolution isn't true... the world is only 6000 years old.... tells you god gave you this land... tells you abortion clinics are evil - do you blow it up?

Here's my bias - I did research and find an atheist therapist for kids abused by a Mormon leader. No way in hell was I going to subject them to religious rationalization and additional emotional manipulation by a religiously affiliated therapist whose bias was to protect the church and church leaders. Have to admit, there are some professionals I trust more than others. Data based decision on all as much as I can.
I personally would have tried to obtain a tape or video footage of him saying that.

Protect yourself from denial and accusations of slander that may come your way.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
At the recent Mormon General con their president told members "Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from prophets, seers and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost."

So...
don't listen to your doctor if he has a different faith than you.
don't listen to a police officer / fire fighter / emergency responder if they have different religious beliefs than you.
if a member of your family has a different belief, don't listen to them.
if a book/news article/journal was written by someone with a different belief, don't read it.

information control is part of the b.i.t.e. model.

For all the religious and non-religious people here, how much do you trust someone's secular education / career expertise as opposed to following the pope/bishop/church?

If your church tells you - no blood transfusions, and doc says your kid needs it?
If your church tells you to gather at their temple, and the weather guy has it mapped as a flood location - do you follow flood zone maps, or your local leader?
If your church tells you evolution isn't true... the world is only 6000 years old.... tells you god gave you this land... tells you abortion clinics are evil - do you blow it up?

Here's my bias - I did research and find an atheist therapist for kids abused by a Mormon leader. No way in hell was I going to subject them to religious rationalization and additional emotional manipulation by a religiously affiliated therapist whose bias was to protect the church and church leaders. Have to admit, there are some professionals I trust more than others. Data based decision on all as much as I can.
Trying to be fair...the word counsel could mean spiritual questions related counsel too. Your generalization of his advice regarding counsel into all aspects of life may not be warranted.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Me too - I don't know the religious views of most people I work with - and take counsel from. If they are good in their jobs, have a good track record, of course we all need to listen and take counsel from one another.

Control of information - don't listen to critics? I read the 1-star reviews first before purchasing anything ;)
Some people actually like having religious overlords that tell them what to do and say.
 

idea

Question Everything
Trying to be fair...the word counsel could mean spiritual questions related counsel too. Your generalization of his advice regarding counsel into all aspects of life may not be warranted.

From social media, many in mixed faith families have been struggling over what was said. Within any faith there are the extremist fundamentalists, and the - almost out, thinking for themselves- spectrum of believers. This last general con has just been especially difficult for those living with the "all-in" crowd.

Church above family happens for quite a few.

Most avoid admitting cognitive dissonance - strange to hear the equivalent of "embrace cognitive dissonance " preached from pulpit.

Spiritual wisdom - all wisdom- comes from those of all backgrounds. Learn from everything, learn from everyone. Whatever is good and praiseworthy - Whatever the source - seek.
 

idea

Question Everything
I personally would have tried to obtain a tape or video footage of him saying that.

Protect yourself from denial and accusations of slander that may come your way.

President is on tape saying don't take counsel from anyone but me - its in a few newspaper articles.

Yes. The pedophile taped himself. We live in a transparent world.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Trying to be fair...the word counsel could mean spiritual questions related counsel too. Your generalization of his advice regarding counsel into all aspects of life may not be warranted.
And even if they weren't, there's something to be said for working with those whose culture aligns with your own. Attempting to adopt ways from cultures wildly different from your own is often problematic - either because the foundational assumptions don't line up or things are taken out of context and then misapplied or misused relative to their original intent.
 

idea

Question Everything
And even if they weren't, there's something to be said for working with those whose culture aligns with your own. Attempting to adopt ways from cultures wildly different from your own is often problematic - either because the foundational assumptions don't line up or things are taken out of context and then misapplied or misused relative to their original intent.

Fibonacci, father of math, the reason we all count with 1, 2, 3 - he grew up on merchant ships, traveling from country to country, counting goods, figuring out different monetary systems. He combined the good ideas from all he met, Hindu, Arabic, Italian - our current math is universal for all of us because Fibonacci learned from everyone he met.

Melting pot - American inventions, the first car, first plane, first power plant, mix of food - melting pot of cultures....

Have you traveled to places where there is no choice in food? Just one kind of food? Works for a few days, but after awhile... diversity is the spice of life. It's a richer experience to explore and learn from everyone. Avoid supremist mindsets ;) no group is better, amazing things everywhere.


We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, tells us we're chosen, tells us we're better than others. We sip only little by little at truth we find bitter.... there is comfort in finding connections with more than one small group for those who are able to let go of ego a bit. Part of something bigger = being bigger. The larger the community - citizens of world, family to all - greater connections = bigger person.
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
For all the religious and non-religious people here, how much do you trust someone's secular education / career expertise as opposed to following the pope/bishop/church?
I trust no human. But, I can trust that secular education gives secular view. And truth and right knowledge can be called at least as much religious as secular.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
When a religion has no real faith in the truth of it's own teachings, it will resort to hiding itself and it's followers away from the world. Hoping to fester in isolation.
 

idea

Question Everything
I trust no human. But, I can trust that secular education gives secular view. And truth and right knowledge can be called at least as much religious as secular.

I agree, best to follow logic, follow data for as much as possible.

For things like - do they love me? Will they cheat on me? Are they polygamists? - people have data too, what is their relashionship track record, what is their work track record. Trust them as far as their track record justifies.

Uncertainty in everything, but also the ability to change the road your on when new data is presented.
 

idea

Question Everything
When a religion has no real faith in the truth of it's own teachings, it will resort to hiding itself and it's followers away from the world. Hoping to fester in isolation.


I think its confusion of loyalty over truth.

Patriotism vs nationalism
Love vs. controlling jealous - wants to keep spouse isolated
Healthy, unhealthy group dynamics.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
And even if they weren't, there's something to be said for working with those whose culture aligns with your own. Attempting to adopt ways from cultures wildly different from your own is often problematic - either because the foundational assumptions don't line up or things are taken out of context and then misapplied or misused relative to their original intent.
Then they need to grow up and live in the same workd as the rest of us.
And that's not whatvwas meant anyways. Churches like that need to be very insular or people won't believe. It's Christian supremacy and a dogmatic pursuit of purity. It's no different than my old church throwing away literature because the author was of another denomination. We know best, we have the truth, and it's so incredibly delicate that we have to keep you away from outside views because the truth just doesn't match the outside world.
It's why I call Christianity a cult.
 
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