Need advice, seeking, leaving LDS church.

[idea]

... “is there a church that teaches Jesus”. ....

Thank you for sharing your story Gerry. My father was Catholic, my mother non-denominational, my husband and most of his family are LDS. Yes, the more I think about it, the more I am finding I would rather be a visitor than a member for any organized group. I do find the stories and lessons of Jesus to be beautiful, however I do not find the accounts of Jesus' dad to be uplifting. The best thing is probably just to worry about the here and now, to be kind, try and help others the best I can - which is the point of engineering - with no need for dogma, rituals, fancy Sunday clothes, or preaching. I'm learning to simplify, remove baggage, concentrate on what really matters. No hard feelings towards anyone, there are good people in all organizations, just something about organizations that are not quite genuine. It's great to meet together with people, and share ideas, but it needs to be on the lines of friendship, without strings, without requirements or assignments, without outer darkness or judging who is in which level of of some imagined eternal caste system. Everyone here, including me, is doing the best they can with what they have, and that is enough. I'm slowly finding a new kind of honest peace.

Seasons blessings to all of you, and thanks to all for your posts.

 

[Prestor John]

Once again I find myself needing to explore and find a new faith group. Quick background, I grew up in a religious, but non-denominational family. After spiritual experiences I then joined the LDS church which I attended for quite some time. After a few life-events, I am now seeking to find a group that:

• Does not believe in any "caste" system for the afterlife (degrees of glory, eternally outcast→favorite children)
• Embraces spiritual experiences, includes more than intellectual study
• Participates in humanitarian work
• Community oriented, welcomes guests, participates in festivals
• Has amazing and uplifting music
• Respects all religious beliefs, does not hold itself above others.

ok - suggest away, what group fulfills the above?

Also, family advice. Has anyone out there left the church their family currently attends? What is the best way to maintain close family ties while attending different religious groups?

I am sorry that you are struggling with your faith, but have you considered that the issues you have with the LDS Church are more about your own interpretation rather than the actual doctrine?

For example, I have never considered the degrees of glory to be a "caste system" and I don't understand how anyone could come to that conclusion.

Also, have you studied the history of the LDS Church, which is filled to the brim with spiritual experiences?

How can you not know about the humanitarian works of the LDS Church? Why don't you participate in the Ward or Stake service projects?

What is a "community oriented" church to you? Does inviting everyone to attend their worship service not welcoming to guests? What about the dances, dinners, holiday celebrations?

I can think of no more uplifting music than the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

The LDS Church teaches its members to respect the beliefs of others, yet contends that only the truth is true.

I just don't know where these criticisms are coming from.

 

[idea]

I am sorry that you are struggling with your faith, but have you considered that the issues you have with the LDS Church are more about your own interpretation rather than the actual doctrine?

For example, I have never considered the degrees of glory to be a "caste system" and I don't understand how anyone could come to that conclusion.

Also, have you studied the history of the LDS Church, which is filled to the brim with spiritual experiences?

How can you not know about the humanitarian works of the LDS Church? Why don't you participate in the Ward or Stake service projects?

What is a "community oriented" church to you? Does inviting everyone to attend their worship service not welcoming to guests? What about the dances, dinners, holiday celebrations?

I can think of no more uplifting music than the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

The LDS Church teaches its members to respect the beliefs of others, yet contends that only the truth is true.

I just don't know where these criticisms are coming from.

Thank you for your care and concern brother John - I agree, there are many wonderful things about the LDS church, as there are many wonderful things within all religious traditions (if there was nothing there, no one would follow it!)

How do you come to terms with the teachings of outer darkness, and lower degrees of glory? Do you want ot become like g-d - to be worshiped, and to be higher than others? the degrees of glory truly does bother me.

I think there are "other sheep", more than one tribe, and hope to find the same degree of glory for all, and salvation for all, by the end.

I could never be happy knowing that other brothers and sisters were eternally damned in lower degrees of glory - could you ever be happy knowing others who were eternally stuck in outer darkness? It seems impossible to be both filled with love for all, and happy with an eternal caste system...

 

[Prestor John]

Thank you for your care and concern brother John - I agree, there are many wonderful things about the LDS church, as there are many wonderful things within all religious traditions (if there was nothing there, no one would follow it!)

How do you come to terms with the teachings of outer darkness, and lower degrees of glory? Do you want ot become like g-d - to be worshiped, and to be higher than others? the degrees of glory truly does bother me.

I think there are "other sheep", more than one tribe, and hope to find the same degree of glory for all, and salvation for all, by the end.

I could never be happy knowing that other brothers and sisters were eternally damned in lower degrees of glory - could you ever be happy knowing others who were eternally stuck in outer darkness? It seems impossible to be both filled with love for all, and happy with an eternal caste system...

Please don't interpret my comments to be inflammatory. I have no intention of being rude, but I will get to my point and stay there, so that may "sound" rude.

I believe that your issues with the degrees of glory come from a reliance on opinion and theories rather than on actual doctrine.

For example, no where in the scriptures does it claim that the outcome of becoming like God the Father would result in any of us becoming objects of worship.

Neither do the scriptures claim that we would receive our own world and rule over it as God the Father has ruled over ours.

These and many other ideas have been theories and speculations talked about in the Church since the days of Joseph Smith, but none of them are actual doctrine.

All we know is that through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ we can become like Him and God the Father.

The details of that revelation have not been revealed as the doctrine of the Church.

That being said, I wish to now share my personal opinion about outer darkness and the degrees of glory as you asked.

I honestly believe that God does not want to force any condition upon us. He has allowed us, from the very beginning of our existence (whenever that was) complete freedom.

We are free to choose what to do, where to go, what to care about, etc.

Therefore, if someone commits what is known as "the unpardonable sin", they will eventually be cast into Outer Darkness.

The reason for this being that, when a person is given the opportunity in this mortal life to receive all that the Father has, yet decides to reject it, they are displaying their desire to have no part nor portion of what the Father has.

Therefore the Father, in His mercy, has prepared a place for those of His children who want nothing to do with Him and He refers to that place as Outer Darkness.

Now, the name and the conditions of "Outer Darkness" might sound horrible to you and I, because we actually love God and want to be a part of everything and anything He has to offer, but to those who literally hate God and don't want any of His light in their existence, Outer Darkness is "just right" for them and I believe that they will eventually find contentment there, if not happiness.

It's crazy, I know, but I have come to understand this through personal experiences. There are things that people choose to do and places people choose to go to that boggle my mind, because I would never willingly do those things and go to those places, but these people make their choices and who am I to tell them that they should not be able to make that choice?

God loves us all, therefore, He gives to us exactly what we want to receive.

For those who will eventually enter into either the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms (it is my understanding that most of God's children will be entering into the Celestial), they are receiving exactly that which they wanted.

Some of God's children simply would not be comfortable in the Celestial Kingdom, for whatever reason. Even though I cannot fathom the reasons that one might not want to enter there, I cannot take that choice away from them and I know that God does not want to take that choice away.

His entire Plan of Salvation, or Plan of Happiness, is founded on the principle of individual freedom and agency.

This is why I do not agree with your term "caste system" to describe the Kingdoms of Glory, because that implies that a condition is being "forced" on God's children, when it is my understanding that the exact opposite is true.

God allows His children to do as they wish and to go where they will go.

He will not force anyone into the Celestial Kingdom if they don't want to go there.

He will not force anyone to accept the responsibilities of becoming like Him if they don't want them.

Well, that's my belief in a nutshell. I'm willing to talk more about it if you want.

I encourage you to rely more on the scriptures and official doctrines of the Church rather than these speculations and theories.

 

[idea]

I honestly believe that God does not want to force any condition upon us. He has allowed us, from the very beginning of our existence (whenever that was) complete freedom.

We are free to choose what to do, where to go, what to care about, etc.
...

Some of God's children simply would not be comfortable in the Celestial Kingdom, for whatever reason.

I would not feel comfortable in the celestial kingdom if everyone - all spirits - were not also there with me. I am free to choose who to care about - I care about everyone, everywhere.
Perhaps the theory of "outer darkness" is just some scare tactic to help encourage everyone to "choose the right", and in the end 100% will make it to celestial glory. If this is the case, then great! I am part of that 100%.

Perhaps there are multiple kingdoms in heaven as there are on earth. In this case, I will be looking to spend eternity in whichever kingdom treats all equally - where all are united in one heart and one mind, with none more glorious than the other.

I cannot know what the eternities will be, so I fill just hope for the best. What do I believe? I believe in love - here and now. I believe in being kind, in admitting mistakes, in service. If there is a wonderful loving light-filled being above who stands for the same thing then great! I will love and be loved by them.

If there is a being above who is filled with wrath, who condemns their children to outer darkness, who Alma 14 - does not save those who burn in fire... count me out, I will be looking for another kingdom.

Wheat and tares - I will take the wheat, and leave the tares.

I believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men and women; indeed, I may say that I follow the admonition of Paul—I hope for all good things, I have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things well. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, I seek after these things.

I worship principles of goodness - I do not worship a church, I do not worship any prophets as I hope you do not either.

Love, joy, peace - those things which transcend religious denominations, those things which apply to all humanity through all history - this is what I will now cling to and believe in.

I am thankful for those things I have learned during my time in the LDS church. I am also thankful for free agency, for the ability to learn from all people, everywhere. No hard feelings - just stretching my wings a bit.

 

[Prestor John]

Hey again. I just want to remind you that I don’t intend to insult you. I’m just going to use blunt language.

You have shared a lot of different ideas in this last posting and I want to cover it all, but I’m afraid if I addressed it all at once that many things will simply be glossed over.

So, I’m going to only focus on one point at a time and give it the attention it is due. I will address everything eventually.

I do this because I fear that many of the things I mentioned in my last post were ignored or not given consideration.

I would not feel comfortable in the celestial kingdom if everyone - all spirits - were not also there with me. I am free to choose who to care about - I care about everyone, everywhere.

I understand your motivation here, but I need to say this directly, this idea is pure evil. It is a doctrine of devils.

I’m not saying that your desire for everyone to enter into the Celestial Kingdom is evil, for it is the same desire that our Father in Heaven and the Lord Jesus Christ share.

I understand that you have good intentions in regards to this belief, but, as the old adage goes, “The path to Hell is paved with good intentions”.

The reason this idea is evil is because it robs Mankind of his agency and freedom.

You cannot force everyone to go to the Celestial Kingdom because there are those in this world who do not wish to enter there. It is not the desire of their heart.

For example, I have an older brother and his list of priorities differ wildly from my own. He has made some life decisions that I never would, which include his breaking of the covenants he has made in the Temple.

We have had many discussions about spiritual things and he simply does not believe in the same things I do and many of the truths I hold dear make him uncomfortable.

A few months ago my brother went to an event called, “The Burning Man”. It’s kind of like an outdoor hippie retreat involving music and art and activities. Think of a type of Woodstock event.

He excitedly shared his experiences at this event with me and I knew instantly that I would not like to go to that event. When he finished sharing I told him that that event sounded like Hell itself and I would never go to one, but I was glad that he had a good time.

He confirmed that I would not have enjoyed going to that event, but he was glad he went and he had been excited to share his experiences with me, because, to him, the event closely resembled a spirit experience, even though he does not believe in spiritual things.

Now, even though I love my brother and I wish that he would return to the fold and come unto Christ with full purpose of heart, I cannot force him to do it.

I cannot force him to enter the Temple and worship there with me. Just as he cannot force me to attend a Burning Man event and participate in activities there.

He would be very uncomfortable in the Temple, just as I would be uncomfortable at the Burning Man. He would not be happy in the Temple, just as I would not be happy at the Burning Man.

Both of these things would be evil because they would deny us both of our agency and freedom.

Just as I cannot force him the Temple, I also cannot force him into the Celestial Kingdom.

Not only would that be denying my brother his freedom, but it would be consigning him to a state of endless misery and woe, because he would not want to be there, just as he would not want to attend any Temple services with me in this life.

He does not care about such spiritual things. He does not know Christ or our Father in Heaven. He would be extremely uncomfortable, if not in great pain, in Their presence.

I understand your desire to help others because of your great love for them, but don’t become so blinded by your love that you would consider to do evil by forcing anyone into the Celestial Kingdom against their will.

That was the plan offered up by Lucifer in the pre-mortal councils, which caused there to be war in Heaven. For we fought against him in order to retain our agency.

We would not be forced, against our will, to go anywhere. Even the Celestial Kingdom.

I will stop here even though I have more I could share.

I just want to make sure that you understand this principle. I am not asking you to believe it, but merely to understand it.

 

[Katzpur]

I definitely don't see the LDS concept of Heaven as a caste system. To begin with, a person born into a caste system has no chance whatsoever to ever improve his lot in life. He ends up where he starts out. When Jesus said that He would "reward every man according to his works," I think He was merely saying that greater faithfulness merits greater rewards. To me, it doesn't get much more logical than that. Despite the fact that we are all given the opportunity to repent, and despite the fact that this opportunity continues to exist in the post-moral Spirit World, there are some who simply won't take advantage of that gift. Let's take Hitler, as an example. Now I don't know any more than anyone else does what the state of his mind and heart are at present, but if he were never to repent of the indescribable evils he perpetrated against millions of innocent people, I have no problem with him receiving a lesser reward than someone who spent his entire lifetime in service to his fellow man. According to LDS doctrine, Hitler will still end up in Heaven -- though in the Telestial Kingdom. Every other Christian denomination would say that there are two possibilities for him: (1) If he repented moments before he died, he will end up with the same reward as the most compassionate, loving, giving soul who ever lived, or (2) if he didn't, he will spend eternity in Hell. The Telestial Kingdom can hardly be thought of as Hell. So Hitler better be hoping that LDS doctrine is, in fact, correct.

My understanding of Outer Darkness is that it is reserved solely for those individuals who, at the end of the Millennium, at the Second Resurrection, will essentially stand before God and flat out deny Him. They literally want no part of Him or His glory. I disagree with Prestor John that anyone who ends up in "Outer Darkness" will "eventually find contentment there." I don't believe there will be anything but torment for those in Outer Darkness, but if my understanding is correct, there are going to be very, very, very few individuals who end up there, and those who do won't end up there because they were evil here on earth but because they literally hate God and want nothing to do with Him. Honestly, I can't imagine any form of judgment that could be more fair than what our Church teaches.

 

[idea]

John - I agree, it not heaven if everyone were forced to be there. I believe appropriate educational techniques could be used though - not taking away anyone's agency. Light / love / kindness - these principles apply to all things that live, and I think all living things would seek it if allowed and correctly mentored.

Katz - People are born into it. We born into a family, into a country, into a time period - most people stay in the circles they were born into. The problem with judgement/accountability in the next life is the huge disparity in regards to the tests on this planet. Some go through the holocaust for their life's test, while others are on this earth for mere seconds and gain celestial splendor for their short life? The biggest sinners I know (and believe me, I know some) have also experienced the largest amount of abuse themselves. I cannot hold on to hate/revenge/punishment - I cannot live in that darkness. If it ends in outder darkness, that means the pain was completely pointless - that it did not refine, that people were tested beyond their limits of endurance, that the test was not fair - pointless and cruel... Everyone making it to heaven? That is the only thing that would justify the tests - the only thing that would give life meaning.

The end will either justify, or condemn the means.

Either everyone is given the individual care, education, and refinement they personally need to progress.... the pain will later be explained, and the end will justify the means...or...

Some people are taken beyond their limits, are tested unmercifully, are not properly educated, and then condemned to outer darkness for it...← that is not fair, it is not just, it is not loving.

 

[Prestor John]

I disagree with Prestor John that anyone who ends up in "Outer Darkness" will "eventually find contentment there." I don't believe there will be anything but torment for those in Outer Darkness

My opinion concerning the state of those in Outer Darkness is mine alone, but I do believe there is some support for my opinion in the Standard Works and the doctrines of the Church.

For example, does the Church not teach that those who rise in the Resurrection will no longer be subject to pain, disease or death anymore?

All those who kept their first estate, yet committed the unpardonable sin in mortality, will be Resurrected and receive joy in that state before entering into Outer Darkness.

Their state of being in Outer Darkness will be much different than those who did not keep their first estate, such as Lucifer and those who followed him into Rebellion.

All language concerning torment and pain is only in reference to that period of time betwixt physical death and the Resurrection, which has been referred to as hell, prison or even outer darkness.

Yet, since these references are about sufferings had only before the Judgment, we can logically surmise that these references to "outer darkness" (like in Alma 40) are not in reference to the state of the Resurrected Being who enters Outer Darkness after the Judgment, but rather the temporary state of the wicked awaiting Resurrection.

Also, considering that all of us, even those who will enter into Outer Darkness, will eventually accept that the Lord's judgments are just, is there no ounce of peace to be found in that fact?

Then when you also consider the state of an unrepentant soul before the Judgment being one of self-extinction,

"Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds." (Alma 36:15)

Will they have no comfort when after they are Judged they will allowed to continue in their existence and have been given a space to abide?

One man's torment is another man's pleasure. Like in the example I shared about me and my brother.

He found joy in the Burning Man event when I would find only torment. Also, while I would find peace in the Temple, he would find anxiety.

In God's plan we all get what we want, and we all want what we enjoy.

Some of us will not want to be associated with our Father, but would rather be separated from His goodness.

I pity those who desire such a thing, but to each their own.

 

[allfoak]

ok - suggest away, what group fulfills the above?

You do.
Everyone's religion is different because everyone is different.

 

[Katzpur]

Katz - People are born into it. We born into a family, into a country, into a time period - most people stay in the circles they were born into. The problem with judgement/accountability in the next life is the huge disparity in regards to the tests on this planet. Some go through the holocaust for their life's test, while others are on this earth for mere seconds and gain celestial splendor for their short life? The biggest sinners I know (and believe me, I know some) have also experienced the largest amount of abuse themselves.

And that is precisely why the playing field will be made level during the time we spend in the Spirit World. We aren't all born with the same advantages. If we were, the traditional Christian take on how we will be judged would make a whole lot more sense than it does. You're right when you talk about the huge disparity in regards to the tests on this planet, but I believe you're wrong in failing to recognize that this disparity is going to be taken into account when we are judged.

I know you're a convert, but I don't believe you've mentioned in what year you were converted, or if you're familiar with "Believing Christ" by Stephen E. Robinson. A lot of members of the Church read that book when it came out, but not quite as many read his follow-up book, "Following Christ." The "disparity" issue you are referring to was addressed in his second book. You may already be aware of it, but your comments lead me to believe that you're not. So, I'm going to quote the story he told in that book...

"Many years ago, when I was somewhere between nine and eleven, I participated in a community summer recreation program in the town where I grew up. I remember in particular a diving competition for the different age groups held at the community swimming pool. Some of the wealthier kids in our area had their own pools with diving boards, and they were pretty good amateur divers. But there was one kid my age from the less affluent part of town who didn’t have his own pool. What he had was raw courage. While the rest of us did our crisp little swan dives, back dives, and jackknives, being every so careful to arch our backs and point our toes, this young man attempted back flips, one-and-a-half's, doubles, and so on. But, oh, he was sloppy. He seldom kept his feet together, he never pointed his toes, and he usually missed his vertical entry.

The rest of us observed with smug satisfaction as the judges held up their scorecards that he consistently got lower marks than we did with our safe and simple dives, and we congratulated ourselves that we were actually the better divers. “He is all heart and no finesse,” we told ourselves. “After all, we keep our feet together and point our toes.”

The announcement of the winners was a great shock to us, for the brave young lad with the flips had apparently beaten us all.

However, I had kept rough track of the scores in my head, and I knew with the arrogance of limited information that the math didn't add up. I had consistently outscored the boy with the flips. And so, certain that an injustice was being perpetrated, I stormed the scorer’s table and demanded and explanation. “Degree of difficulty,” the scorer replied matter-of-factly as he looked me in the eye. “Sure, you had better form, but he did harder dives. When you factor in the degree of difficulty, he beat you hands down, kid.”

Until that moment I hadn't known that some dives were awarded “extra credit” because of their greater difficulty.

Whenever I am tempted to feel superior to other Saints, the parable of the divers comes to my mind, and I repent. At least at a swim meet, we can usually tell which dives are the most difficult. But here in mortality, we cannot always tell who is carrying what burdens: limited intelligence, chemical depression, compulsive behaviors, learning disabilities, dysfunctional or abusive family background, poor health, physical or psychological handicaps—no one chooses these things. So I must not judge my brothers and sisters. I am thankful for my blessings but not smug about them, for I never want to hear the Scorer say to me, “Sure, you had better form, but she had a harder life. When you factor in degree of difficulty, she beat you hands down.”

I can't tell you how often I've considered my own life and blessings in that regard. A lot of the time, I feel like I'm being a pretty good person and that my behavior is more than likely pleasing to the Lord. But then I stop and think how, since I've been given so much and have had such a relatively easy life, I may very well be falling far short of what He expects of me. I may be in "better form," but when "the degree of difficultly" is factored in, I may be a huge disappointment to Him.

I cannot hold on to hate/revenge/punishment - I cannot live in that darkness. If it ends in outer darkness, that means the pain was completely pointless - that it did not refine, that people were tested beyond their limits of endurance, that the test was not fair - pointless and cruel... Everyone making it to heaven? That is the only thing that would justify the tests - the only thing that would give life meaning.

Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with holding on to revenge. Nothing would make me happier than if everybody ended up in the Celestial Kingdom, and I'm sure nothing would make God happier. But the only way that could happen was if He were to simply say, "You know, I think I'm just going to throw this test out the window. Your faithfulness and your love for your fellow men really don't matter. I don't know why I even bothered to give you commandments in the first place. Let's just call it good." In other words, it sounds like you're okay with there being a test as long as the test doesn't count. You seem to think that unless God grants everybody who has ever lived the same reward, that He it's "not fair." I don't believe that God doesn't just want us to return to Him; I believe he wants us to return to Him better people than we were when we left Him. And some people simply aren't going to care to do that.

Some people are taken beyond their limits, are tested unmercifully, are not properly educated, and then condemned to outer darkness for it...← that is not fair, it is not just, it is not loving.

Yes, some people are taken beyond their limits, are tested unmercifully [and] are not properly educated. But how in the world did you come to the conclusion that they will be condemned to outer darkness for it? That is so not LDS doctrine! The only thing that is going to send someone to Outer Darkness is committing the unpardonable sin. And none of the things you have indicated having the faintest thing to do with the unpardonable sin. Mormonism teaches that every soul who has ever lived will have the same chance at Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom. We don't all need to meet all of the qualifications while in mortality, and the vast, vast majority of people won't. I fully expect that the Celestial Kingdom will be populated with people who lived their entire lives as Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and even atheists. That's fair; that's just; that's loving. And that is LDS doctrine.

One of my all-time favorite quotes from any LDS General Authority is from Dieter Uchtdorf, who said, "The more we learn about the gospel of Jesus Christ, the more we realize that endings here in mortality are not endings at all. They are merely interruptions—temporary pauses that one day will seem small compared to the eternal joy awaiting the faithful." You seem to not be taking this into account at all.

 

[Katzpur]

My opinion concerning the state of those in Outer Darkness is mine alone, but I do believe there is some support for my opinion in the Standard Works and the doctrines of the Church.

For example, does the Church not teach that those who rise in the Resurrection will no longer be subject to pain, disease or death anymore?

All those who kept their first estate, yet committed the unpardonable sin in mortality, will be Resurrected and receive joy in that state before entering into Outer Darkness.

Their state of being in Outer Darkness will be much different than those who did not keep their first estate, such as Lucifer and those who followed him into Rebellion.

All language concerning torment and pain is only in reference to that period of time betwixt physical death and the Resurrection, which has been referred to as hell, prison or even outer darkness.

Yet, since these references are about sufferings had only before the Judgment, we can logically surmise that these references to "outer darkness" (like in Alma 40) are not in reference to the state of the Resurrected Being who enters Outer Darkness after the Judgment, but rather the temporary state of the wicked awaiting Resurrection.

Also, considering that all of us, even those who will enter into Outer Darkness, will eventually accept that the Lord's judgments are just, is there no ounce of peace to be found in that fact?

Then when you also consider the state of an unrepentant soul before the Judgment being one of self-extinction,

"Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds." (Alma 36:15)

Will they have no comfort when after they are Judged they will allowed to continue in their existence and have been given a space to abide?

One man's torment is another man's pleasure. Like in the example I shared about me and my brother.

He found joy in the Burning Man event when I would find only torment. Also, while I would find peace in the Temple, he would find anxiety.

In God's plan we all get what we want, and we all want what we enjoy.

Some of us will not want to be associated with our Father, but would rather be separated from His goodness.

I pity those who desire such a thing, but to each their own.

Well, I'm afraid I can't see eye to eye with you on this. My personal opinion corresponds more closely with this paragraph on the subject, as taken from MormonWiki (Underlining is mine):

Outer Darkness is the permanent location of Satan and his followers, and the Sons of Perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Satan and his followers are beings of spirit who were denied bodies and cast out of heaven during pre-mortal existence. After the millennium, after the last great battle between the forces of God and the forces of Satan, Satan and his followers will be cast into Outer Darkness.

The Sons of Perdition are those who have lived as mortal men and women on the earth, have had the heavens opened to them and received a certain knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, and then have rejected the Savior, "having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:34-35; see also Doctrine and Covenants 76:31–33, 36–37). These men and women cannot be redeemed, and will be the only ones who will suffer the second death. The first death is physical death, and everyone but the devil and his angels will overcome physical death through Resurrection. The second death is spiritual and is separation from God. Everyone but the Sons of Perdition and the devil and his devils, will overcome spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, sons of perdition cannot achieve forgiveness and will be completely cast outside of the light of God. Hence, the term outer darkness. They will not have access to the Holy Ghost or Heavenly Father or Jesus. In short, Outer Darkness is eternal torture. Another name for Outer Darkness is hell.

I do have one comment of my own. I think that we often kid ourselves when we say we have "received a certain knowledge that Jesus is the Christ." I believe that almost everyone who has ever lived, regardless of how strong their testimonies, is still walking by faith and is consequently not even a candidate for being a Son of Perdition. I would say that someone like Joseph Smith, who actually saw God the Father and the living Savior, would have far less of an excuse than the rest of us, and had he denied the "certain knowledge" he'd been given, he could have become a Son of Perdition. Had Peter, James, and John have denied what they witnessed at Christ's Transfiguration, they might have been candidates for Perdition. I don't, however, see the average person's occasional doubts as putting them in that same category. No matter how strong a person's testimony, unless he has been given that extraordinary gift of perfect and complete knowledge, he is not even a potential Son of Perdition. Satan and those who chose to follow him did have that knowledge and denied it. Again, I understand that you've just stated your opinion. I hope you understand that I've just stated mine.

 

[idea]

Thanks again for your replies. It is wonderful when others are brave enough to share their thoughts, instead of remain silent and I appreciate that. I value opinions -

My opinion concerning the state of those in Outer Darkness is mine alone, but I do believe there is some support for my opinion in the Standard Works and the doctrines of the Church.
For example, does the Church not teach that those who rise in the Resurrection will no longer be subject to pain, disease or death anymore?
All those who kept their first estate, yet committed the unpardonable sin in mortality, will be Resurrected and receive joy in that state before entering into Outer Darkness.
Their state of being in Outer Darkness will be much different than those who did not keep their first estate, such as Lucifer and those who followed him into Rebellion.
All language concerning torment and pain is only in reference to that period of time betwixt physical death and the Resurrection, which has been referred to as hell, prison or even outer darkness.
Yet, since these references are about sufferings had only before the Judgment, we can logically surmise that these references to "outer darkness" (like in Alma 40) are not in reference to the state of the Resurrected Being who enters Outer Darkness after the Judgment, but rather the temporary state of the wicked awaiting Resurrection.
Also, considering that all of us, even those who will enter into Outer Darkness, will eventually accept that the Lord's judgments are just, is there no ounce of peace to be found in that fact?
Then when you also consider the state of an unrepentant soul before the Judgment being one of self-extinction,
"Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds." (Alma 36:15)
Will they have no comfort when after they are Judged they will allowed to continue in their existence and have been given a space to abide?
One man's torment is another man's pleasure. Like in the example I shared about me and my brother.
He found joy in the Burning Man event when I would find only torment. Also, while I would find peace in the Temple, he would find anxiety.
In God's plan we all get what we want, and we all want what we enjoy.
Some of us will not want to be associated with our Father, but would rather be separated from His goodness.
I pity those who desire such a thing, but to each their own.

Is it fair to condemn anyone eternally to outer darkness who is ignorant? The just and fair thing to do is not eternal condemnation, but temporary confinement, accompanied with education. We do not condemn young children for their ignorance, why condemn anyone for their ignorance - and that is what this is for everyone, actions born of ignorance. Like a dog who snaps and bites because they do not know what love is... educate them what love is, and they will stop snapping and biting those who try to come close.

The only way to justly condemn someone is if they were all-knowing, if they were not ignorant of anything. The only way to become all-knowing, is to go through all experiences, to know the minds of all, to experience life and death and all of it. Is anyone all-knowing? and in their ignorance should we condemn them?

So someone wants to go to a concert or a party instead of stay home with family. They have not been properly educated. They do not understand the joys of goodness, do not know what it is, if they do not seek it. If we could all provide a perfect educational experience for them - make them truly feel loved, to understand what brings more joy - ...

We need more carrots if we want to motivate others into the right direction.

I am a much bigger fan of carrots, than I am of sticks.

 

[idea]

... "Believing Christ" by Stephen E. Robinson. ...

Yes, some people are taken beyond their limits, are tested unmercifully [and] are not properly educated. But how in the world did you come to the conclusion that they will be condemned to outer darkness for it? That is so not LDS doctrine!

So you believe those in outer darkness, or in any of the lower kingdoms, are 100% all-knowing, as g-d it - that they are Omniscient, and have not made their choice out of ignorance?

"The more we learn about the gospel of Jesus Christ, the more we realize that endings here in mortality are not endings at all. They are merely interruptions—temporary pauses that one day will seem small compared to the eternal joy awaiting the faithful." You seem to not be taking this into account at all.

... In short, Outer Darkness is eternal torture. ....

.

eternal?


Alma 42...if so, God would cease to be God....

If there are conditions under which g-d can fall from eternal grace, then there should also be conditions under which the damned could escape their hell.

 

[Katzpur]

So you believe those in outer darkness, or in any of the lower kingdoms, are 100% all-knowing, as g-d it - that they are Omniscient, and have not made their choice out of ignorance?

Well, I would make a clear distinction between Outer Darkness and Heaven. And I believe that the few who end up there did have a perfect knowledge and chose to deny it. I see them as willfully choosing permanent isolation from God over anything else.

As far as those who will spend eternity in the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms, I believe that they were either less committed to their Savior, less appreciative of His sacrifice or less receptive to His message -- not only as they knew it on earth, but as they came to understand it in their post-mortal life in the Spirit World. I guess it gets down to the fact that we're not all the same. I do believe that every last soul who ever chose to come to earth will be given every conceivable opportunity to receive the greatest blessings that God has in store for all of us. But I don't believe there is anything that is going to make some people take advantage of that opportunity.

By the way, I like the semicolon.

eternal?

For those in Outer Darkness, I believe so. For everyone else, not eternal, just temporary.

Alma 42...if so, God would cease to be God....

For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved. (Alma 42:24)

If there are conditions under which g-d can fall from eternal grace, then there should also be conditions under which the damned could escape their hell.

I believe that any and all who repent, whether it be here in mortality or in the Spirit World as they await the resurrection, can and will escape their hell. To me, that is justice in its purest form.

I have one question for you, idea. Do you believe that Satan and those who were cast out of Heaven along with him will ultimately end up in Heaven? I do know a few Christians who believe they will, so if you do, you do have a few soul mates out there. You might want to check out this website.

 

[Prestor John]

Well, I'm afraid I can't see eye to eye with you on this. My personal opinion corresponds more closely with this paragraph on the subject, as taken from MormonWiki (Underlining is mine):

Outer Darkness is the permanent location of Satan and his followers, and the Sons of Perdition, who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Satan and his followers are beings of spirit who were denied bodies and cast out of heaven during pre-mortal existence. After the millennium, after the last great battle between the forces of God and the forces of Satan, Satan and his followers will be cast into Outer Darkness.

The Sons of Perdition are those who have lived as mortal men and women on the earth, have had the heavens opened to them and received a certain knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, and then have rejected the Savior, "having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:34-35; see also Doctrine and Covenants 76:31–33, 36–37). These men and women cannot be redeemed, and will be the only ones who will suffer the second death. The first death is physical death, and everyone but the devil and his angels will overcome physical death through Resurrection. The second death is spiritual and is separation from God. Everyone but the Sons of Perdition and the devil and his devils, will overcome spiritual death through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, sons of perdition cannot achieve forgiveness and will be completely cast outside of the light of God. Hence, the term outer darkness. They will not have access to the Holy Ghost or Heavenly Father or Jesus. In short, Outer Darkness is eternal torture. Another name for Outer Darkness is hell.

I do have one comment of my own. I think that we often kid ourselves when we say we have "received a certain knowledge that Jesus is the Christ." I believe that almost everyone who has ever lived, regardless of how strong their testimonies, is still walking by faith and is consequently not even a candidate for being a Son of Perdition. I would say that someone like Joseph Smith, who actually saw God the Father and the living Savior, would have far less of an excuse than the rest of us, and had he denied the "certain knowledge" he'd been given, he could have become a Son of Perdition. Had Peter, James, and John have denied what they witnessed at Christ's Transfiguration, they might have been candidates for Perdition. I don't, however, see the average person's occasional doubts as putting them in that same category. No matter how strong a person's testimony, unless he has been given that extraordinary gift of perfect and complete knowledge, he is not even a potential Son of Perdition. Satan and those who chose to follow him did have that knowledge and denied it. Again, I understand that you've just stated your opinion. I hope you understand that I've just stated mine.

I understand exactly where you are coming from and I don't disagree with you much.

It's just....

Well, what is "torture"?

You and I would both agree that not being able to dwell in God's light and presence would be torture, but that is not necessarily true for everyone.

My brother loved the Burning Man, but I would consider it torture.

Then in regards to spiritual death, aren't you and I and all current mortals suffering the effects of spiritual death? We are separated from God and full of sin. We are not yet redeemed.

Yet, would this level of existence be so bad with a perfected physical body?

I'm not trying to say that anyone is going to be ecstatic about going to Outer Darkness or that their happiness would be at all comparable to those who dwell with God, but they would still be free do to as they would outside of God's kingdom.

Are you saying a homeless person can't find any modicum of happiness in our world?

All I'm saying is that all of God's children are going to receive exactly what they want.

Living outside of God's Kingdom is not what I would want and it would be torture for me, but would it be for everybody?

They would still have many of the other freedoms ensured by the Lord's Atonement.

 

[Katzpur]

I understand exactly where you are coming from and I don't disagree with you much.

It's just....

Well, what is "torture"?

You and I would both agree that not being able to dwell in God's light and presence would be torture, but that is not necessarily true for everyone.

My brother loved the Burning Man, but I would consider it torture.

Well, for starters, I see the torture as being emotional in nature as opposed to physical. I've never heard an LDS General Authority refer to a literal "Lake of Fire."

Then in regards to spiritual death, aren't you and I and all current mortals suffering the effects of spiritual death? We are separated from God and full of sin. We are not yet redeemed.

Yet, would this level of existence be so bad with a perfected physical body?

How would having a "perfected physical body" (if that is, indeed, the case with respect to the Sons of Perdition) make the mental torment any less intense? Yes, we're separated from God, but we can feel His influence everywhere around us. That influence will not permeate "Outer Darkness." That will be a place entirely devoid of God's glory, presence or influence.

I'm not trying to say that anyone is going to be ecstatic about going to Outer Darkness or that their happiness would be at all comparable to those who dwell with God, but they would still be free do to as they would outside of God's kingdom.

Free to do what, exactly? I think all they'll be free to do is suffer the agony of having denied God, having been given every conceivable opportunity to accept Him.

Are you saying a homeless person can't find any modicum of happiness in our world?

Not at all. But then I don't think the comparison even begins to be reasonable.

All I'm saying is that all of God's children are going to receive exactly what they want.

I suspect that those who choose Satan over the Savior will be pretty unpleasantly surprised by the misery they will be forced to endure throughout eternity. I would say, on the other hand, that those in the Telestial Kingdom will be happy there. It will, after all, be Heaven. You can't get around the fact that Outer Darkness is Hell.

Living outside of God's Kingdom is not what I would want and it would be torture for me, but would it be for everybody?

I don't think living in any part of Heaven would be torture for anybody, but I do believe that Outer Darkness would be torture -- again, not of a physical nature, but of a mental, emotional and spiritual nature.

They would still have many of the other freedoms ensured by the Lord's Atonement.

Such as what? The freedom to be wicked? Wickedness never was happiness, as you well know.

 

[Prestor John]

Thanks again for your replies. It is wonderful when others are brave enough to share their thoughts, instead of remain silent and I appreciate that. I value opinions -

No problem. I love talking about the beliefs of the LDS Church as well as my own opinions.

I just hope I am being clear enough so that you are not confusing the two.

However, this leads me to say that your comments make me feel as though you do not have a grasp on actual LDS doctrine.

I’m not trying to offend you, but I will discuss why I feel this is so.

Is it fair to condemn anyone eternally to outer darkness who is ignorant?

This here is a perfect example for why I believe that you don’t know or understand basic LDS doctrine.

The Standard Works of the Church clearly teach that the “ignorant”, or those who did not have the law in this life, will not be sent to either Hell or Outer Darkness:

“Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.
For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.” (2 Nephi 9:25-26)

“For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—” (Moroni 8:22)

“For there is no respect of persons with God.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;” (Romans 2:11-12)

“And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.” (Doctrine and Covenants 45:54)

We believe that no one can be condemned or saved in ignorance and that every single person will be given the choice either in mortality or in the Spirit World to accept or reject the truth.

The just and fair thing to do is not eternal condemnation, but temporary confinement, accompanied with education.

This is precisely what the LDS Church believes and teaches.

We believe that after physical death, the spirits of all people go to either Paradise, Prison or Hell to wait until the time of their Resurrection.

Paradise is the place where those who believed in Christ and accepted His Gospel will dwell, teaching those in Spirit Prison about Him.

Yes, the word “Prison” sounds awful, but it is the most appropriate word because the spirits that go there are not allowed to leave until they have received all truth concerning Christ and have made their choice to accept or reject it.

Spirits in prison will learn the Gospel and all of God’s Laws and can still repent of their sins and be redeemed if they so choose.

Hell is also a temporary place, and it will be home to willful sinners, like murderers and rapists and the like. Those who entered there will still eventually enter into God’s Kingdom as long as they did not commit the unpardonable sin.

We do not condemn young children for their ignorance, why condemn anyone for their ignorance - and that is what this is for everyone, actions born of ignorance.

Exactly.

We are all children and many (if not most) of us will leave this world without receiving a full knowledge of the truth.

Outer Darkness is reserved only for those who had a perfect knowledge of the goodness of God and His Christ and still rejected it.

Very few of us will actually be consigned to Outer Darkness.​

 

[Prestor John]

Like a dog who snaps and bites because they do not know what love is... educate them what love is, and they will stop snapping and biting those who try to come close.

Absolutely.

Even though this life is a test, we are still learning and growing.

Why do you think our Father has commanded us to pray and study the scriptures daily?

Why does He require us to attend our meetings each Sunday and partake of the Sacrament and remember what His Son did for us all?

He is always encouraging us to learn what love is and how we should best express that love.

The only way to justly condemn someone is if they were all-knowing, if they were not ignorant of anything.

That is LDS doctrine.

The only way to become all-knowing, is to go through all experiences, to know the minds of all, to experience life and death and all of it.

Well, we disagree here.

We would consider “all-knowing”, in this case, to be having a perfect knowledge that God lives and that He has offered salvation to all through His Son.

The Prophet Joseph Smith said that committing the unpardonable sin is like staring at the sun at noonday and declaring that it does not shine.

You would not need to know the minds of all in order to commit the unpardonable sin.

However, you are describing the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. For He truly came to know each and every one of us. Our minds and all of our experiences.

He even came to Earth as a Man in order to learn everything there was to know about being mortal.

While being mortal He suffered the pains of every single person’s sins and He died on our behalf.

Is anyone all-knowing? and in their ignorance should we condemn them?

Only God and His Christ or those like Them, are all-knowing.

It takes perfection of both body and spirit in order to come to know all things.

Not everyone is capable of it, least of all those who commit the unpardonable sin.​

 

[Prestor John]

So someone wants to go to a concert or a party instead of stay home with family. They have not been properly educated. They do not understand the joys of goodness, do not know what it is, if they do not seek it. If we could all provide a perfect educational experience for them - make them truly feel loved, to understand what brings more joy - ...

I don’t understand.

What is wrong with concerts or parties?

People can go to both of those things and still enter into Gods Kingdom.

I also don’t understand the picture or your comments about carrots and sticks.

I think it would be best for your to get back to the basics. Study the Standard Works and pray daily. Attend your weekly meetings and stop obsessing about Outer Darkness and the Final Judgment.

That’s just my opinion.​