Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Dan From Smithville]

Let me ask you questions.

Both @Dan From Smithville and @Lekatt are Christians, so both believe in Jesus and the resurrection...However, only one of them actually UNDERSTAND science, especially the reality of human biology...Dan, not Lekatt.

You should already know how Dan reasons, through your experiences and exchanges of posts with him.

In one of Lekatt’s earlier post (post 388), he or she wrote this:

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So from what I see here, Lekatt is indicating that the spirit, not the human physical brain, that controls the bodily motion, human emotion & reasoning and memories.

So my questions to you, are:

Do you agree with Lekatt’s repeated position that spirits, not the brains, store memories, control emotions and bodily functions?

Does the brains have no functions at all?

As near as I can determine from what has been posted, the brain is some sort of physical relay between the spiritual and the physical. Nothing has been offered to demonstrate this. Even if it were so, I cannot imagine the relay does not hold data that would be necessary for it to function as a relay. The baseless explanations do what they most often do and just lead to more questions that will remain unanswered or answered with more belief that demands support that will not follow.

All I know is that I have beliefs that I cannot demonstrate to someone that asks me why they should believe as I do.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I have said this many, many times. Some NDEs are verified by doctors and surgeons in attendance. They collaborate the details of the experience as told by the experiencer. There is evidence, there is collaboration of many of them. See below.

I really, really wish you would understand that these videos are not evidence of spirits and disembodied minds.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sure you are claiming that the brain is us, now prove.

When a person's brain becomes damaged, it can change their personality.
Done.

Now you go. Demonstrate something, anything about the validity of your claims.

 

[Lekatt]

But you are making claims about physical things you know to be true, yet cannot establish the validity of that truth by any means that you can share. It becomes another circular argument where I have to believe something I cannot demonstrate in order to believe what you believe, yet cannot demonstrate. The risk is believing something that might be false.

We are all constantly buffeted with claims that are the "truth" from trusted and questionable sources. What you are saying is that trusting something makes it truth. Yet there are also persist stories of that trust being broken. Sometimes questionable sources tell the truth and sometimes trusted sources fail. So, the premise that trust establishes truth does not seem to be a good indicator of validity.

When I was a child, I used to read "the world's greatest comic magazine". Was it? Who knows? I recall at the time noting this claim and wondering. I doubt everyone in the world was reading it. I don't know what definition of greatest was being used.

When you buy a can of beans, do you need to have a forensic test done to see if it is really beans?

 

[Lekatt]

Goal post shift. I have not claimed that NDE's do not exist. I have made no claims that experiencing death in any way cannot or does not cause persons or people to change their lives. I do not deny that there is evidence for them.

What I want to know is how your explanation of them is valid and one that I should accept based on the evidence, since I cannot share your subjective experience.

All your videos do is make a claim, demand it be believed and all other explanations ignored. They are evidence, but just for that of reinforce existing belief and not explanation or support of the arguments for what is believed. They are evidence that some people believe and have video equipment.

The evidence is good enough to convince the surgeon who went public with it. You are just dancing on a pin.

 

[Lekatt]

Oh okay. Well I saw a leprechaun yesterday.

According to your hypothesis, you have to believe me just because I said so.

Good thing this isn't how it's actually done.

I have never indicated you had to believe anything. Belief or non-belief changes nothing. Truth is truth.

 

[Lekatt]

Now you're trying an argument from personal incredulity which is another logical fallacy.
It appears that your entire hypothesis is based on cherry picking data and logical fallacies.
Good thing we don't do science that way.

That did not make sense. I asked how science explains this skill got into his brain without lessons or practice. You did not answer the question.

 

[Lekatt]

I really, really wish you would understand that these videos are not evidence of spirits and disembodied minds.

Are you saying the brain jumped out of body and observed, along with the eyes and ears. What would you say it was?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I have never indicated you had to believe anything. Belief or non-belief changes nothing. Truth is truth.

I really wish you wouldn't keep missing the point.

The point is that using your methodology (and I use that term very loosely) we have to just believe every claim anybody makes because well, they believe it and they said it happened.
Well, that's not how truth works. And it's not how science works.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Are you saying the brain jumped out of body and observed, along with the eyes and ears. What would you say it was?

Where is that in these videos you keep posting?

 

[SkepticThinker]

That did not make sense. I asked how science explains this skill got into his brain without lessons or practice. You did not answer the question.

Your claims don't make sense because they are logical fallacies.
You don't just get to say "well you can't explain that so it must be spirits/disembodied minds" without having to actually demonstrate that first.
Your beliefs don't become magically true by default. And you don't get to shift the burden of proof when your demonstrations fail.
I really wish you would grasp these basic concepts.

 

[gnostic]

I have said this many, many times. Some NDEs are verified by doctors and surgeons in attendance. They collaborate the details of the experience as told by the experiencer. There is evidence, there is collaboration of many of them. See below.

No, lekatt.

Doctors can only verified their patients returning to life, after being clinically dead for some minutes.

The doctors didn’t see the soul of any patients leaving and returning to their bodies. Nothing about the soul or spirits being involved, have been verified.

You are making leaps. And those videos you keep posting, are just leaps.

 

[Lekatt]

No, lekatt.

Doctors can only verified their patients returning to life, after being clinically dead for some minutes.

The doctors didn’t see the soul of any patients leaving and returning to their bodies. Nothing about the soul or spirits being involved, have been verified.

You are making leaps. And those videos you keep posting, are just leaps.

You haven't been watching the videos. The doctors did say it was evidence of spirit. Of course it does.

 

[Lekatt]

Your claims don't make sense because they are logical fallacies.
You don't just get to say "well you can't explain that so it must be spirits/disembodied minds" without having to actually demonstrate that first.
Your beliefs don't become magically true by default. And you don't get to shift the burden of proof when your demonstrations fail.
I really wish you would grasp these basic concepts.

What are you saying? That the skill was not in the brain? Of course you can't explain how it got there, not with science anyway. Yes, by default it is spirit.

 

[Lekatt]

Where is that in these videos you keep posting?

You didn't even look at the video.

 

[gnostic]

Yes, it is the spiritual source through the soul that vivifies the body, expresses human emotional responses and the human mind. Each human life is an expression of the universe, so while a person is an individual and unique in time and space, the eternal Divine source is common, the 'uni' of universe means one. But to understand this rather than just believing, not believing, or not understanding, the prerequisite understanding of the reality behind all the concepts being used is absolutely essential, without that, it is all vanity.

While it is true that the source of the human body, emotions, and mind is spiritual, clearly it is the creature that actually does the expressing, therefore the CNS and S & P NS, memory, conditioning, etc. must play and important role in the reasoning, remembering, etc..

Again, there are no more evidence in your claims than there are for Lekatt’s claims about soul, spirits or the “spiritual” emotion or reasoning.

When a person experienced physical pain due to injury, due to injury or illness or from disease, the emotion can often be seen in their facial expressions.

If the soul exist, then it shouldn’t feel any pain at all, so why would person physically express pain at all, if the soul CONTROLLED everything?

Why would soul being “eternal” or “divine” have pain, or have fear pain or death?

Animals have been show to have their own memories, and they can definitely show pains, whenever they are injured or fighting for their lives. Do they have soul too?

Like, Lekatt, your explanations/claims only lead to more new questions than answering the current questions, because your explanations are unsatisfactory and become less credible.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

If there are no thoughts in the mind, what is this presentation of reality then?

I have never met any person that understands who and what they are. I have met many that believe they know. Perhaps one of them does. How can I know? How can they be certain? That is the duality.

Is believing you know equal to knowing? If I believe I have arrived, then the journey is over? What if the journey requires questions?

I gave a very basic description of religion. I did not say that is all I thought it was.

The reality directly present when the mind is free from thought is not conceptual, it is reality itself and beyond words. This is not meant to be a cop out, but honestly when my mind is pretty close to being without movement in the meditative state, it has become obvious that this still mind awareness is so far beyond the thinking mind that it is impossible to even begin to try and put into words. Religious traditions talk about 'glory beyond understanding', 'divine bliss', etc., it is a state where you are not experiencing it, you are it, nothing else exists except divine bliss. When your ego mind begins to reassert itself, duality exists once more and the ego mind ponders, thinks about it but the conceptualization can't do justice in representing still mind reality.

You are on the right line of thinking wrt duality, one is only in a state of being what and who they really are when there is no duality present in the mind, this happens only when the mind is still. Of course, devoted aspirants who have realized this state of oneness and practice regularly, eventually self identify with that oneness state rather than the dualistic thinking self which they now see as an illusion of reality, not reality itself. You are familiar with the concept of this world being 'maya', that is what the thinking mind percieves.

Believing and knowing both imply duality so in that sense they are alike. By my saying that the journey has ended means that for that soul, evolution is complete, it is the destiny for all souls to realize the unity of all that is. Science deals with the maya, religion is meant to deal with the real. When Jesus taught that you can not serve two masters without serving one second best, it is referring to the two paths open for souls to 'travel'. The wide path is easy so most travel there, but it leads to destruction, the narrow path is difficult so few travel there, but it leads to immortality. {Matthew 7:13 -14)

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Again, there are no more evidence in your claims than there are for Lekatt’s claims about soul, spirits or the “spiritual” emotion or reasoning.

When a person experienced physical pain due to injury, due to injury or illness or from disease, the emotion can often be seen in their facial expressions.

If the soul exist, then it shouldn’t feel any pain at all, so why would person physically express pain at all, if the soul CONTROLLED everything?

Why would soul being “eternal” or “divine” have pain, or have fear pain or death?

Animals have been show to have their own memories, and they can definitely show pains, whenever they are injured or fighting for their lives. Do they have soul too?

Like, Lekatt, your explanations/claims only lead to more new questions than answering the current questions, because your explanations are unsatisfactory and become less credible.

Ahem, soul feeling pain, I do not understand how you got that impression? The soul is the combination of spirit and body, it is the mortal self, and expresses through the body, emotions and mind. It is not eternal in itself but is the seed that will flower into immortality when its evolution is complete.

Animals, birds, fish, do not have an individual souls like human beings, but there are group souls associated with herds, flocks, schools, etc. of these creatures.

God sleeps in the rock,
Dreams in the plant,
Stirs in the animal,
And awakens in man. - Al Arabi

I explained to Dan that the only evidence you will ever realize wrt God is when you learn what and who you really are. At the moment you are living in maya, the illusion of reality, reality is not dual, it is the unity of all that is. For that reason, Jesus taught that there are two paths, the one that science deals with, duality, which leads to destruction (most souls are on this path) and the one that deals with the reality represented by the concept of God, Brahman, etc., which leads to immortality. Matthew 7:13-14 You can't serve both without serving one second best.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I am interested in what people believe they know and how they know it.

Yes, everyone has their story, both subjective and/or objective, and I am happy to lend an ear, but I only follow up with in depth questioning where there is potential to learn from it..

 

[gnostic]

Ahem, soul feeling pain, I do not understand how you got that impression? The soul is the combination of spirit and body, it is the mortal self, and expresses through the body, emotions and mind. It is not eternal in itself but is the seed that will flower into immortality when its evolution is complete.

Animals, birds, fish, do not have an individual souls like human beings, but there are group souls associated with herds, flocks, schools, etc. of these creatures.

God sleeps in the rock,
Dreams in the plant,
Stirs in the animal,
And awakens in man. - Al Arabi

I explained to Dan that the only evidence you will ever realize wrt God is when you learn what and who you really are. At the moment you are living in maya, the illusion of reality, reality is not dual, it is the unity of all that is. For that reason, Jesus taught that there are two paths, the one that science deals with, duality, which leads to destruction (most souls are on this path) and the one that deals with the reality represented by the concept of God, Brahman, etc., which leads to immortality. Matthew 7:13-14 You can't serve both without serving one second best.

The only dualism that exist in Christianity that I know of, is in Gnosticism and in Neo-Platonism, not in mainstream Christianity...unless you are talking about good and bad, moral and immoral, to sin or to not sin, and heaven (eternal rewards) and hell (eternal torment)...but I don’t think that’s what you are talking about.

Science is not it.

Jesus never taught anything about “science” or Naturalism, Jesus never talk of any path to science.

So I don’t know where got this concept of Jesus being against science.

As to the maya. That’s a Buddhist or Hindu concept.

The closest thing to maya in Christianity, is the very unorthodox Gnosticism, more specifically the Sethian Gnosticism, where the pantheon is divided between the aeons of the One and the archon named Yaldabaoth the Demiurge (demiurge, literally means “artisan”, but since post-Plato’s time, it is a Hellenistic and early Christian title for the “creator”.

Yaldabaoth, was a Creator, but he was a false god, who tricked humans into worshiping him, and stealing their soul. Yaldabaoth‘s deception is like yours, maya.

Gnosticism is heavily influenced by Hellenistic concepts, especially the mysteries cult - the Orphic mysteries.


Anyway the Gnostic concepts of creation and dualism are lot more complex than that, and I have been trying to untangle dualism of Gnosticism for 14 years...so I am in no mood to explain further.