Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[tas8831]

Most people can understand the spiritual nature of mankind.

Ah - the guy that claimed that he yelled out for God to save him while he was intubated and thus physically incapable of yelling at all.

Great source!

 

[tas8831]

TVs do not store data unless they are equipped with a computer and told to do so. The signal comes in and is presented and is dismissed.

So you just undercut your response to me.
Hilarious.

 

[Lekatt]

The doctors said it was "evidence of spirit?"
And just how do they determine that? Did they somehow demonstrate the existence of spirits? Where can we read their work on this? Videos aren't cutting it.

That is a given. Can't think why anyone would not understand. You don't want to know or believe and is is OK. You don't have to explain it. I understand.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is a given. Can't think why anyone would not understand. You don't want to know or believe and is is OK. You don't have to explain it. I understand.

A given? How could it be a given when nobody even knows if disembodied minds exist and all and can't even demonstrate that they do? That makes zero sense.

Okay so you think you can just declare something is so and it is because that's what you want to believe? And you're going to impugn me for not believing when you've presented zero evidence for the things you're claiming?

Of course I want to know. Hence the reason I've been asking for EVIDENCE for how many pages now?

I think the one thing that you have demonstrated in this thread is that you have no basis for your beliefs other than your wanting them to be true. You cherry pick data. You ignore data that disagrees with your beliefs. You understand very little about the brain, and because of that, you engage in logical fallacies and false analogies when pressed for answers.

 

[Lekatt]

A given? How could it be a given when nobody even knows if disembodied minds exist and all and can't even demonstrate that they do? That makes zero sense.

Okay so you think you can just declare something is so and it is because that's what you want to believe? And you're going to impugn me for not believing when you've presented zero evidence for the things you're claiming?

Of course I want to know. Hence the reason I've been asking for EVIDENCE for how many pages now?

I think the one thing that you have demonstrated in this thread is that you have no basis for your beliefs other than your wanting them to be true. You cherry pick data. You ignore data that disagrees with your beliefs. You understand very little about the brain, and because of that, you engage in logical fallacies and false analogies when pressed for answers.

Seems everyone I know talks and believes in spirit. I experienced it, no question in my mind.

 

[gnostic]

That is a given. Can't think why anyone would not understand. You don't want to know or believe and is is OK. You don't have to explain it. I understand.

You are incapable of understanding what constitutes as “science” and “scientific evidence”.

This topic isn’t just about people making claims about NDE - it is also about can Scientific Method be applied to NDE?

And the short and quick answer to that is a definite “No”.

Scientific Method involve two main steps:

1. Formulation of falsifiable model (explanations plus predictions)
2. Testing the model through observations (evidence, experiments)

There are lot more steps than these two, but I am trying to simplify for you. If you want to know more, you should google “Scientific Method” or look it up at Wikipedia, but knowing you, I am not going to hold my breathe that you would educate yourself.

Science is all about falsifiability and verification of any given model. And the scientific method don’t involved beliefs, because the 2nd part to Scientific Method.

I have mentioned “model” a number of times. Model as in...

(A) explanations (hence an explanatory model) and

(B) predictions (predictive model)​

...in a “hypothesis” or “scientific theory”.

In science, the theory or hypothesis should contain these models.

The models should also contain some methodology as to how one would test those explanations/predictions, like how one would...

(A) carry out experiments or

(B) finding and gathering and testing some physical evidence.​

These evidence and test results from experiments should yield information (data) about the physical phenomena under investigation or research.

Data like the observating or detecting properties of the phenomena, quantities of evidence, measurements, comparison of multiple evidence against each other, etc.

Both evidence and data should allow scientists to analyze and conclude if the hypothesis or theory succeed or fail in the Scientific Method.

NDE has failed on both counts (eg formulating falsifiable models and testing the models).

All you have done are shown videos of people, including doctors, making claims about spirits.

These claims don’t count as evidence. These claims are no more than personal opinions and personal beliefs of the claimants who believe in “spirits”.

Can everyone observe, measure or test spirits or soul? No.

That’s all they are, Lekatt, these videos are just people’s personal beliefs.

NDE isn’t falsifiable (meaning “not testable”), and it is not science.

 

[night912]

Seems everyone I know talks and believes in spirit. I experienced it, no question in my mind.

So you have never asked any spirit a question with the use of your mind before? We formulate ideas, statements, questions etc, through the use of our minds. If you have never done that before with a spirit, what convinced you into believing that you actually talked to a spirit? How did you determine that everyone you know haved actually talked to a spirit before? Someone claiming to have talked to a spirit does not mean that he actually talked to one.

My little nephew once told me that he was talking to Ironman. Does this mean that you believe that the actual ironman from the comics and other media actually exist? Do you also believe that every event from every dream that you ever had, actually did happened to you? And I'm talking about them simply being dreams, but that they were actual events that happened in your life.

Just letting you know, your method of determining what's true and what's false based on you knowing who they are, is irrational.

 

[joelr]

As I've been explaining, actual reality is not the same thing as conceptual reality, it just is what it is. To realize actual reality, one must transcend the conceptual mind, the everyday mind of most people of the world. This is what I understand religion to be about, what Jesus taught, he taught that the world hated him. And generally they still do, for the planetary human civilization is based on conceptual reality, the whole world revolves around conceptual reality, think of the thousand trillion dollars being spent each year. Jesus was a threat and so are all religious systems which teach the unity of existence rather than the dualistic conceptual perception approach to reality that the people of the world are educated and subsequently conditioned to believe represents reality.

True reality is not of this world, this world meaning the world as perceived through the human mind's conceptualization, true reality is non-dual and thus nothing can be said about it. "What no human as ever saw or heard, what no one has ever conceived, that is what awaits those who love God" 1 Corinthians 2:9

So the Roman church never focused on this, because the Roman empire is of the world and is based on conceptual reality. All the religions of the world that focus on a practice meant to transcend the conceptual mind, to still the mind of its worldly thoughts, will allow their respective aspirants to realize the immortal state of spiritual being.

Penultimately I must repeat that though all I've said is conceptual, it is meant to convey the idea that reality is on the other side of the concepts. The reality represented by such concepts as souls, transcending, spirit, God, etc., are not important at the beginning, certainly not to have some firm belief as to what they are, for you will eventually understand what they represent after treading the straight and very very difficult path that leads the state of transcendence.

Lastly, all is perfect as it is, the religious practice of which I speak is not meant to replace the status quo wrt the people of the world living in a state of conditioned conceptual reality, it is only for those who choose to realize reality beyond the conceptual conditioning.

what you are describing is Advaita Vedanta in Hindusim, the actual reality is non-dual and the world we experience is an illusion or maya. Christianity doesn't get too deep into that.
The world didn't hate Jesus, that is more about non-believers. Many Jews were offended at the idea that God would be a man as well and there was also many competing religions. I don't think people have issues with religion because it promotes unity of existence?
That whole transcendence thing is much more of an Eastern thing and is why so much emphasis is put on meditation in Hinduism and philosophies that branch directly from it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

what you are describing is Advaita Vedanta in Hindusim, the actual reality is non-dual and the world we experience is an illusion or maya. Christianity doesn't get too deep into that.
The world didn't hate Jesus, that is more about non-believers. Many Jews were offended at the idea that God would be a man as well and there was also many competing religions. I don't think people have issues with religion because it promotes unity of existence?
That whole transcendence thing is much more of an Eastern thing and is why so much emphasis is put on meditation in Hinduism and philosophies that branch directly from it.

As an observation, I don't disagree with most of what you say.

 

[joelr]

I have said this many, many times. Some NDEs are verified by doctors and surgeons in attendance. They collaborate the details of the experience as told by the experiencer. There is evidence, there is collaboration of many of them. See below.

No the doctor didn't verify it? One doctor was speculating that this might be evidence of a spiritual realm. Another thought these memories may have happened while she was waking up and in an article he explained how she may have gotten some of the images of the medical room correct. So there were 2 doctors each giving speculation, one for a possible NDE the other for more mundane reasons. To pass this as evidence and go further to say the doctor verified it is focusing and exaggerating evidence on one side. It's interesting for sure. But it's not definitive.

 

[Lekatt]

No the doctor didn't verify it? One doctor was speculating that this might be evidence of a spiritual realm. Another thought these memories may have happened while she was waking up and in an article he explained how she may have gotten some of the images of the medical room correct. So there were 2 doctors each giving speculation, one for a possible NDE the other for more mundane reasons. To pass this as evidence and go further to say the doctor verified it is focusing and exaggerating evidence on one side. It's interesting for sure. But it's not definitive.

I don't think there is anything I can show you that will be convincing.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

That is a given. Can't think why anyone would not understand. You don't want to know or believe and is is OK. You don't have to explain it. I understand.

It's a given? So spirits and the spirit world has previously been established. Then it should be no problem for you to post the sources that demonstrate this 'law of spirits' or whatever you wish to call it. I would guess this must have happened prior to video, so we don't have waste time looking through hours of useless footage.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I don't think there is anything I can show you that will be convincing.

Because there is nothing to show. If it existed, it would have been used long before this thread came up.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Seems everyone I know talks and believes in spirit. I experienced it, no question in my mind.

Perhaps you did, but the issue here is that you cannot show us that your conclusions about what you experienced are valid.

Just because lots of people think fortune cookies were invented by the Chinese does not make that so.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Nothing in this world is supernatural, magic, miracles, etc. There are only things we don't understand. Every effect has a cause. Some say they see ghosts and others say they are dreaming. Both are wrong. Both lack knowledge of the cause and effect.

If it is all part of the natural world, then there is evidence that can be observed, tested, base conclusions on and make claims. You make the claims, but there is nothing else you have to show us about those claims.

That is the point with your supernatural explanations.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't think there is anything I can show you that will be convincing.

Well, if you can't produce convincing evidence that demonstrates the veracity of your claims, then nobody should believe them. Including yourself.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Seems everyone I know talks and believes in spirit. I experienced it, no question in my mind.

A lot of people believe they've been abducted by space aliens, too. That doesn't make the claims true.

This is a logical fallacy called Argumentum Ad Populum. The number of people who believe in a thing has no bearing on whether or not that thing actually exists.

You experienced something. You've attached an "explanation" to it that is not in evidence and is not an actual explanation with any explanatory power.

 

[joelr]

I don't think there is anything I can show you that will be convincing.

There isn't any evidence that one should be convinced by. It's a possibility that NDE are an experience from some afterlife but it's also possible they are some type of thing happening in the brain not related to that.
We just don't know. Many people die and are revived and experience nothing. Same when being put under general anaesthesia, there are never reports of those types of experiences.
It's hard to know who is making stories up as well.

 

[Lekatt]

There isn't any evidence that one should be convinced by. It's a possibility that NDE are an experience from some afterlife but it's also possible they are some type of thing happening in the brain not related to that.
We just don't know. Many people die and are revived and experience nothing. Same when being put under general anaesthesia, there are never reports of those types of experiences.
It's hard to know who is making stories up as well.

I and others who have experienced know.

 

[Lekatt]

You want evidence and I give it. Good for most people at least to consider. What is your evidence the brain creates the person.