Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Ben Dhyan]

The only dualism that exist in Christianity that I know of, is in Gnosticism and in Neo-Platonism, not in mainstream Christianity...unless you are talking about good and bad, moral and immoral, to sin or to not sin, and heaven (eternal rewards) and hell (eternal torment)...but I don’t think that’s what you are talking about.

Science is not it.

Jesus never taught anything about “science” or Naturalism, Jesus never talk of any path to science.

So I don’t know where got this concept of Jesus being against science.

As to the maya. That’s a Buddhist or Hindu concept.

The closest thing to maya in Christianity, is the very unorthodox Gnosticism, more specifically the Sethian Gnosticism, where the pantheon is divided between the aeons of the One and the archon named Yaldabaoth the Demiurge (demiurge, literally means “artisan”, but since post-Plato’s time, it is a Hellenistic and early Christian title for the “creator”.

Yaldabaoth, was a Creator, but he was a false god, who tricked humans into worshiping him, and stealing their soul. Yaldabaoth‘s deception is like yours, maya.

Gnosticism is heavily influenced by Hellenistic concepts, especially the mysteries cult - the Orphic mysteries.

Anyway the Gnostic concepts of creation and dualism are lot more complex than that, and I have been trying to untangle dualism of Gnosticism for 14 years...so I am in no mood to explain further.

Jesus said the Father and I are one, this is non-duality, this is union.

If Jesus taught that there are two paths, a religious path that leads to immortality, then the other path logically is non-religious, the secular order of which science is a part. I know you can't be suggesting science is religious. Jesus taught the religious path, not the secular.

Yes, the word 'Maya' is Sanskrit meaning illusion, and Jesus taught that the Kingdom of God is not of this world, implying that this world is an illusionary reality relative to the ridgy didge one. John 18:36.

I am saying that the path that Jesus spoke of was the one that leads to union with God, ie., immortality, I have no comment of Gnosticism.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

When you buy a can of beans, do you need to have a forensic test done to see if it is really beans?

I have evidence about canning food, beans, that companies can beans, that there are many types of beans, many brands. I could read about the process from field to food. I can visit a cannery and watch it in operation. I can read the label. I can open the can.

You cannot do any of that with beliefs you have outlined on this thread.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

The evidence is good enough to convince the surgeon who went public with it. You are just dancing on a pin.

The evidence is more claims. Nothing more. There isn't even a pin for you dance on.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

You haven't been watching the videos. The doctors did say it was evidence of spirit. Of course it does.

A person's opinion is not evidence of the spirit world. It is evidence that the person things something.

I am not telling you not to believe what you want, but you are making claims that you clearly cannot support. It isn't even clear how you determined anything. You just decided to believe it and went whole hog. That is the only thing I have evidence for here.

That is my entire point. We can all believe something, we just can't show someone that challenges any claims we make. It is reality and one that I am aware of and work around.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Ahem, soul feeling pain, I do not understand how you got that impression? The soul is the combination of spirit and body, it is the mortal self, and expresses through the body, emotions and mind. It is not eternal in itself but is the seed that will flower into immortality when its evolution is complete.

Animals, birds, fish, do not have an individual souls like human beings, but there are group souls associated with herds, flocks, schools, etc. of these creatures.

God sleeps in the rock,
Dreams in the plant,
Stirs in the animal,
And awakens in man. - Al Arabi

I explained to Dan that the only evidence you will ever realize wrt God is when you learn what and who you really are. At the moment you are living in maya, the illusion of reality, reality is not dual, it is the unity of all that is. For that reason, Jesus taught that there are two paths, the one that science deals with, duality, which leads to destruction (most souls are on this path) and the one that deals with the reality represented by the concept of God, Brahman, etc., which leads to immortality. Matthew 7:13-14 You can't serve both without serving one second best.

This the issue I refer to. On this thread, we have three different believers that all believe somewhat different things. You talk of spirit and body being one. Groups souls. @Lekatt speaks of a soul that is not completely contained in the body and that it jumps from one body to another. I recognize reality and what we can say about it and that any of what we believe is subjective and cannot be supported by physical evidence. I believe the soul and the body are separate, since the soul is spirit and not physical. A person can believe anything they want and whatever that is cannot be proven to exist or not exist. How many other views are there? They cannot all be right. Or perhaps they are right for each person, but that sort of eliminates the claims I have seen made on this and other threads.

I would not use by personal beliefs and unsupported opinions to advance claims about the physical world. I do not get data on the lepidopteran toxicity of a protein expressed in corn through prayer for instance or claim the data came to me through revelation. I don't look for the effects of a group soul as the basis for the range expansion of euphorine scarabs. There are valid reasons based on the duality of belief and reality.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This the issue I refer to. On this thread, we have three different believers that all believe somewhat different things. You talk of spirit and body being one. Groups souls. @Lekatt speaks of a soul that is not completely contained in the body and that it jumps from one body to another. I recognize reality and what we can say about it and that any of what we believe is subjective and cannot be supported by physical evidence. I believe the soul and the body are separate, since the soul is spirit and not physical. A person can believe anything they want and whatever that is cannot be proven to exist or not exist. How many other views are there? They cannot all be right. Or perhaps they are right for each person, but that sort of eliminates the claims I have seen made on this and other threads.

I would not use by personal beliefs and unsupported opinions to shore up views about the physical world. I do not get data on the lepidopteran toxicity of a protein expressed in corn through prayer for instance or claim the data came to me through revelation.

I have never suggested you should believe anyone on these matters, quite the contrary, I have been explaining that reality is on the other side of beliefs and conceptualizations.. Now in the case of the religious teaching of which I speak, it is still necessary to convey the teaching conceptually as there is no other way to start. So for example to start, I'm conveying to you conceptually that truth is on the other side of the conceptual. There is an irony here for sure, I'm using concepts to explain that concepts are not real (except as concepts), but I trust you understand what I'm trying to convey, that through efficacious spiritual practice, the reality represented by religious concepts is realized.

As to concepts like soul, spirit, again you will never know what the reality is that they represent until you realize the state of mind free from concepts, where reality is what it is. As a student of religion, you are right to sense that opinions and beliefs about these concepts don't prove anything, but you seem to want to keep asking instead of finding out using your own resources. Two points to remember, don't get the cart before the horse by wanting to understand things you don't yet understand, from others upfront, and two, when you come across erroneous religious beliefs and practices, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. You are ultimately the one who needs to realize the reality of religious concepts, in your inner room.

 

[gnostic]

If Jesus taught that there are two paths, a religious path that leads to immortality, then the other path logically is non-religious, the secular order of which science is a part. I know you can't be suggesting science is religious. Jesus taught the religious path, not the secular.

Excuse me, but there are no non-religious path in the ancient Middle East contemporary to Jesus’ time, especially in Galilee and Judaea, where Jesus’ ministry took place.

And “science” at that time (1st century BCE) were required people to be “non-religious”.

And given that Jesus spent much of his times in his locations (eg Nazareth, Bethlehem and other even smaller towns), these places weren’t known to populated with with natural philosophers, so I hardly think he was acquainted with any natural philosophers.

Nothing in the gospels indicated he was familiar with Naturalism. Nothing in his preaching and teachings show that he was that well-educated.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Excuse me, but there are no non-religious path in the ancient Middle East contemporary to Jesus’ time, especially in Galilee and Judaea, where Jesus’ ministry took place.

And “science” at that time (1st century BCE) were required people to be “non-religious”.

And given that Jesus spent much of his times in his locations (eg Nazareth, Bethlehem and other even smaller towns), these places weren’t known to populated with with natural philosophers, so I hardly think he was acquainted with any natural philosophers.

Nothing in the gospels indicated he was familiar with Naturalism. Nothing in his preaching and teachings show that he was that well-educated.

The religious path that Jesus teaches about is not of this world, and leads to immortality, the other path, the worldly path leads to destruction. "If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world..." John 15:19

Gnostic, I'm not talking about the conceptual history of religion, or conceptual religion, of any culture, of any time, I'm talking about going beyond conceptual reality, to realize actual reality that is not of this world. Not of this world means not of human conceptual understanding of this world.

One needs to walk the same path as Jesus if you want to realize that spiritual reality, academic studies will never do. I would just add that other religion's practices apart from the teachings of Jesus will lead to transcendent realization, religion is universal, reunion with the universal source, here and now in this life.



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[joelr]

The religious path that Jesus teaches about is not of this world, and leads to immortality, the other path, the worldly path leads to destruction. "If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world..." John 15:19

Gnostic, I'm not talking about the conceptual history of religion, or conceptual religion, of any culture, of any time, I'm talking about going beyond conceptual reality, to realize actual reality that is not of this world. Not of this world means not of human conceptual understanding of this world.

One needs to walk the same path as Jesus if you want to realize that spiritual reality, academic studies will never do. I would just add that other religion's practices apart from the teachings of Jesus will lead to transcendent realization, religion is universal, reunion with the universal source, here and now in this life.



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Why would a religious path lead to immortality over a non-religious path?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Why would a religious path lead to immortality over a non-religious path?

An efficacious religious practice leads to the development of self awareness of universal spirituality, and thus when the physical body dies, the spiritual self awareness continues, Anyone and everyone who live their life without an efficacious spiritual practice will not develop sufficient self awareness of spirit that survives much beyond the death of the body. By efficacious religious practice I mean the transcending of the dualistic conceptual perception of reality and realizing the unity of universal being.

I might add that, despite the obvious fact that I am not in a position to prove it, reincarnation is a reality, though it is not like most believers believe. There is no hell, nor can anything disappear, including partially developed self awareness that is not sufficient to endure eternally. So such souls reincarnate until immortality is realized, All souls attain to immortality, and the number of reincarnations from the first to the last is not a large number.

So joeir, so you understand, I could care less whether posters believe or not believe in the spiritual side of universal existence, my point is that conceptual reality is what it is, reality is on the other side and only the brave soul will realize it and complete the physical evolution cycle.

 

[gnostic]

The religious path that Jesus teaches about is not of this world, and leads to immortality, the other path, the worldly path leads to destruction. "If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world..." John 15:19

Gnostic, I'm not talking about the conceptual history of religion, or conceptual religion, of any culture, of any time, I'm talking about going beyond conceptual reality, to realize actual reality that is not of this world. Not of this world means not of human conceptual understanding of this world.

One needs to walk the same path as Jesus if you want to realize that spiritual reality, academic studies will never do. I would just add that other religion's practices apart from the teachings of Jesus will lead to transcendent realization, religion is universal, reunion with the universal source, here and now in this life.

Excuse me, but everything you have said and what you believe, including... “spiritual reality”, “transcendent realization” and the “religion is universal, reunion with the universal source, here and now in this life”...are all “conceptual reality”, not “actual reality”.

What you called awareness and transcendence, are just nothing more than personal belief, and IMO, woo.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Excuse me, but everything you have said and what you believe, including... “spiritual reality”, “transcendent realization” and the “religion is universal, reunion with the universal source, here and now in this life”...are all “conceptual reality”, not “actual reality”.

What you called awareness and transcendence, are just nothing more than personal belief, and IMO, woo.

This has been explained time and time again, the last time in my post #986 to Dan. All language is conceptual, and leads to a culture of conceptual reality, a dualstic perception of reality which people presume it to be actual reality. But reality itself is not conceptual, it is on the other side of the concepts. So please understand that I am explaining to you conceptually that there exists a religious practice whereby the aspirant transcends the conceptual mind to apprehend actual reality itself. A soul that has realized transcendence of the conceptual mind and is in a state of unity with all that is, is still able to function in the relative illusionary world of duality by reverting to the conceptual mind, but a person of the world whose mind only perceives reality dualistically is not able to realize the transcendent state.

 

[Lekatt]

Excuse me, but everything you have said and what you believe, including... “spiritual reality”, “transcendent realization” and the “religion is universal, reunion with the universal source, here and now in this life”...are all “conceptual reality”, not “actual reality”.

What you called awareness and transcendence, are just nothing more than personal belief, and IMO, woo.

And your opinion, like mine to you, is nothing more than woo. Whatever that means?

 

[gnostic]

And your opinion, like mine to you, is nothing more than woo. Whatever that means?

In public forums (not just on the Internet), “woo” is a slang for people who believe in any supernatural phenomena, paranormal phenomena or occultist phenomena.

Religious belief in mythological entities, like in spirits, ghosts, ghouls, zombies, vampires, soul, gods, angels, demons, jinns, fairies, leviathan, dragons, hydra, chimera, talking donkey (Numbers) or serpent (Genesis), etc, are all considered supernatural of fantasies, myths and fairytale of beings, spiritual beings or monsters. They don’t exist, and woo is used to describe all of these.

Belief in magic, witchcraft, miracles, transcendence, reincarnation, resurrection, afterlife, heaven, hell, Asgard, Valhalla, astrology, divination, prophecies, out-of-body experience, near death experiences, etc, are all woo.

And so are in belief in the paranormal, like psychic powers of esp, telepathy, telekinesis, healing by touch or by faith, etc.

These woo are based on belief in magic, divine or spiritual, are not real, made up fiction or fantasy by people with wild imagination or worse, by delusions.

I am not the one who believe in woo, but I used to believe in the Bible, which contained woo-thingy, that I have not believe, since I’ve turned 34 since 2000.

I liked watching tv or movies or reading books about fantasy or sci-fi fiction, or about myths and fairytale , but they are not real.

So woo is a slang for any imaginary beings or phenomena and that would stuff found in the gospels (eg miracles performed by Jesus, and talk of heaven and hell) and Revelation (eg angels, four horsemen, the many-headed dragon or the two beasts, etc).

 

[Lekatt]

In public forums (not just on the Internet), “woo” is a slang for people who believe in any supernatural phenomena, paranormal phenomena or occultist phenomena.

Religious belief in mythological entities, like in spirits, ghosts, ghouls, zombies, vampires, soul, gods, angels, demons, jinns, fairies, leviathan, dragons, hydra, chimera, talking donkey (Numbers) or serpent (Genesis), etc, are all considered supernatural of fantasies, myths and fairytale of beings, spiritual beings or monsters. They don’t exist, and woo is used to describe all of these.

Belief in magic, witchcraft, miracles, transcendence, reincarnation, resurrection, afterlife, heaven, hell, Asgard, Valhalla, astrology, divination, prophecies, out-of-body experience, near death experiences, etc, are all woo.

And so are in belief in the paranormal, like psychic powers of esp, telepathy, telekinesis, healing by touch or by faith, etc.

These woo are based on belief in magic, divine or spiritual, are not real, made up fiction or fantasy by people with wild imagination or worse, by delusions.

I am not the one who believe in woo, but I used to believe in the Bible, which contained woo-thingy, that I have not believe, since I’ve turned 34 since 2000.

I liked watching tv or movies or reading books about fantasy or sci-fi fiction, or about myths and fairytale , but they are not real.

So woo is a slang for any imaginary beings or phenomena and that would stuff found in the gospels (eg miracles performed by Jesus, and talk of heaven and hell) and Revelation (eg angels, four horsemen, the many-headed dragon or the two beasts, etc).

Nothing in this world is supernatural, magic, miracles, etc. There are only things we don't understand. Every effect has a cause. Some say they see ghosts and others say they are dreaming. Both are wrong. Both lack knowledge of the cause and effect.

 

[joelr]

An efficacious religious practice leads to the development of self awareness of universal spirituality, and thus when the physical body dies, the spiritual self awareness continues, Anyone and everyone who live their life without an efficacious spiritual practice will not develop sufficient self awareness of spirit that survives much beyond the death of the body. By efficacious religious practice I mean the transcending of the dualistic conceptual perception of reality and realizing the unity of universal being.

I might add that, despite the obvious fact that I am not in a position to prove it, reincarnation is a reality, though it is not like most believers believe. There is no hell, nor can anything disappear, including partially developed self awareness that is not sufficient to endure eternally. So such souls reincarnate until immortality is realized, All souls attain to immortality, and the number of reincarnations from the first to the last is not a large number.

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I still don't see how religion develops self awareness of universal spirituality? I was religious for a long time. I was told people have a soul that goes into an afterlife. That was the only difference? You just believe you have a soul. Christianity is mainly concerned with sin, belief, a savior demigod who gets you into the afterlife and ritual behavior. What you speak of sounds more like Eastern religions that advocate more meditation and exploration of your inner self, getting past the ego and following virtues (as Plato describes) to live a good life.
But both types of behavior do not demonstrate or show that humans actually have a soul? Sam Harris put the time in to completely go through the process of getting a Guru to guide him through years of meditation until he felt he reached a type of enlightenment. while it has benefits in many ways it didn't give him any information about his mind being connected to a soul?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I still don't see how religion develops self awareness of universal spirituality? I was religious for a long time. I was told people have a soul that goes into an afterlife. That was the only difference? You just believe you have a soul. Christianity is mainly concerned with sin, belief, a savior demigod who gets you into the afterlife and ritual behavior. What you speak of sounds more like Eastern religions that advocate more meditation and exploration of your inner self, getting past the ego and following virtues (as Plato describes) to live a good life.
But both types of behavior do not demonstrate or show that humans actually have a soul? Sam Harris put the time in to completely go through the process of getting a Guru to guide him through years of meditation until he felt he reached a type of enlightenment. while it has benefits in many ways it didn't give him any information about his mind being connected to a soul?

As I've been explaining, actual reality is not the same thing as conceptual reality, it just is what it is. To realize actual reality, one must transcend the conceptual mind, the everyday mind of most people of the world. This is what I understand religion to be about, what Jesus taught, he taught that the world hated him. And generally they still do, for the planetary human civilization is based on conceptual reality, the whole world revolves around conceptual reality, think of the thousand trillion dollars being spent each year. Jesus was a threat and so are all religious systems which teach the unity of existence rather than the dualistic conceptual perception approach to reality that the people of the world are educated and subsequently conditioned to believe represents reality.

True reality is not of this world, this world meaning the world as perceived through the human mind's conceptualization, true reality is non-dual and thus nothing can be said about it. "What no human as ever saw or heard, what no one has ever conceived, that is what awaits those who love God" 1 Corinthians 2:9

So the Roman church never focused on this, because the Roman empire is of the world and is based on conceptual reality. All the religions of the world that focus on a practice meant to transcend the conceptual mind, to still the mind of its worldly thoughts, will allow their respective aspirants to realize the immortal state of spiritual being.

Penultimately I must repeat that though all I've said is conceptual, it is meant to convey the idea that reality is on the other side of the concepts. The reality represented by such concepts as souls, transcending, spirit, God, etc., are not important at the beginning, certainly not to have some firm belief as to what they are, for you will eventually understand what they represent after treading the straight and very very difficult path that leads the state of transcendence.

Lastly, all is perfect as it is, the religious practice of which I speak is not meant to replace the status quo wrt the people of the world living in a state of conditioned conceptual reality, it is only for those who choose to realize reality beyond the conceptual conditioning.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You haven't been watching the videos. The doctors did say it was evidence of spirit. Of course it does.

The doctors said it was "evidence of spirit?"
And just how do they determine that? Did they somehow demonstrate the existence of spirits? Where can we read their work on this? Videos aren't cutting it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

What are you saying? That the skill was not in the brain? Of course you can't explain how it got there, not with science anyway. Yes, by default it is spirit.

I'm saying you need to demonstrate your claims! They aren't just true by default, because you can't think of another explanation. That is a logical fallacy!

Please grasp this.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You didn't even look at the video.

No, I no longer watch them, because they don't show what you think they show.
If so, please tell me the exact timeframe in the video I can skip to, so that I can see spirits/disembodied minds.