Nativity scene banned in Santa Monica park

[Draka]

You can drone on and on and on - it won't change the fact that other religions (and non-religious groups) are being discriminated against. Public property should not be used for promotion by any of them. They are quite capable of blinding us with their ON-PROPERTY displays.

Many groups of people of certain religious followings own no property. Why should they be limited in the free exercise of the practice of their religion simply because they do not own land of their own?

 

[Ingledsva]

I'm reading the first amendment now. It says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

It seems to me that the placement of a nativity scene on public property does not constitute the establishment of religion. What religion has been established? How do plastic or wood figurines constitute an "establishment" of religion? It would seem that to "establish" a religion would constitute setting up recognized authority structures, funding the institution, and taking part in the governance thereof.

However, the amendment also prohibits making laws that prohibit the free exercise thereof. It seems to me that to pass a law banning the display of the scene violates the amendment more than does the displaying of the scene.

As I said above, the fact that they discriminate against certain religions and groups - but allow Christian - it then DOES become state promoting a particular religion.

 

[Draka]

As I said above, the fact that they discriminate against certain religions and groups - but allow Christian - it then DOES become state promoting a particular religion.

Are you just talking about one particular place? Or every place? Because you seem to totally have ignored what I have said to the contrary. Not every place is discriminatory so why should every place be treated as though it is?

 

[Ingledsva]

Many groups of people of certain religious followings own no property. Why should they be limited in the free exercise of the practice of their religion simply because they do not own land of their own?

Don't attempt to switch things around. We are talking about religious groups promoting their religions by setting up on public lands - where the town/STATE discriminates against OTHER religions, and groups. This makes it ILLEGAL under our constitution. They are promoting a particular religion.

 

[Ingledsva]

Are you just talking about one particular place? Or every place? Because you seem to totally have ignored what I have said to the contrary. Not every place is discriminatory so why should every place be treated as though it is?

Obviously, pretty much across the board, we have discrimination against other religions and groups. Considering the constitution, it is better to allow NO such displays on public lands.

 

[Draka]

Obviously, pretty much across the board, we have discrimination against other religions and groups. Considering the constitution, it is better to allow NO such displays on public lands.

Well how can you speak for places that you don't even know about?

Don't attempt to switch things around. We are talking about religious groups promoting their religions by setting up on public lands - where the town/STATE discriminates against OTHER religions, and groups. This makes it ILLEGAL under our constitution. They are promoting a particular religion.

I wasn't switching things around. I was making a legitimate point. And again, how would you know about any supposed discrimination in places you haven't even heard of and know nothing about?

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

Magic Man pointed out, and i feel like too many avoided understanding, the fact that it was a result of the "Atheist Displays" being vandalized that caused the city to pull the plug on any display, religious or irreligious. if local abrahmic adherents could control their rage against anything slightly different from them, the nativity scenes would be in full swing. it's a lot like being offered more than half a cookie, punching the person who had the other portion, and then throwing both portions of cookie in the garbage and pretending the whole cookie was taken from you.

christian's seriously need to start taking responsibility for one another. if you're going to blame the 'crazy fundamentalists' every time your 'moderate' side doesn't get your way, maybe you should be witnessing to those of your own fold, rather than focusing on those without a jesus.

 

[Ingledsva]

Well how can you speak for places that you don't even know about?

I wasn't switching things around. I was making a legitimate point. And again, how would you know about any supposed discrimination in places you haven't even heard of and know nothing about?

LOL! This is getting ridiculous. You know perfectly well the major religions of this nation discriminate against other religions and groups. This translates into public lands all over the United States being used to discriminate. Our constitution does not allow this. Since they do not allow ALL - NONE should be allowed. To allow it is to condone the promotion of particular religions. A NO-NO in our Constitution!

All of these religions and groups have the right to set up on their church property or on an individual's property, etc.

 

[Draka]

LOL! This is getting ridiculous. You know perfectly well the major religions of this nation discriminate against other religions and groups. This translates into public lands all over the United States being used to discriminate. Our constitution does not allow this. Since they do not allow ALL - NONE should be allowed. To allow it is to condone the promotion of particular religions. A NO-NO in our Constitution!

All of these religions and groups have the right to set up on their church property or on an individual's property, etc.

I don't have a church nor the space to hold a large gathering for Beltane should I like to. My only recourse would be to use a park. I have yet to see anyone shut down, deny, or picket any Pagan gatherings around here in parks. I still get email invitations to several every year as well. I also have yet to hear about any other religious group being denied here either. Just where is this outpouring of evil Christians shutting everyone else down I'm supposed to be seeing?

 

[Ingledsva]

You can drone on and on and on - it won't change the fact that other religions (and non-religious groups) are being discriminated against. Public property should not be used for promotion by any of them. They are quite capable of blinding us with their ON-PROPERTY displays.

I don't have a church nor the space to hold a large gathering for Beltane should I like to. My only recourse would be to use a park. I have yet to see anyone shut down, deny, or picket any Pagan gatherings around here in parks. I still get email invitations to several every year as well. I also have yet to hear about any other religious group being denied here either. Just where is this outpouring of evil Christians shutting everyone else down I'm supposed to be seeing?

Again - you are bringing it down to your personal experience. And I might add not being forthcoming! You KNOW PERFECTLY WELL that your own religion, and other religions, are discriminated against. This is PUBLIC land and the law is clear.

It would be lovely if they could all set up together - A giant Gross, Giant Hammer, Star of David, Spaghetti Monster, Pentagram, etc - but it is not being allowed - so in fairness, and following our constitution, none should set up on public lands!

 

[Draka]

Again - you are bringing it down to your personal experience. And I might add not being forthcoming! You KNOW PERFECTLY WELL that your own religion, and other religions, are discriminated against. This is PUBLIC land and the law is clear.

It would be lovely if they could all set up together - A giant Gross, Giant Hammer, Star of David, Spaghetti Monster, Pentagram, etc - but it is not being allowed - so in fairness, and following our constitution, none should set up on public lands!

Did you miss earlier where I said that there happens to be displays of various religions in my city's park right now? All lit up. They do it every year. And there are Pagan gatherings in parks here. There are several Pagan groups in Iowa. Iowa is much more diverse than you seem to think it is.

Stop speaking for places you obviously know nothing about.

Anyway, the solution to where there is discrimination is to stand up to it, not just to deny everyone.

 

[Ingledsva]

Did you miss earlier where I said that there happens to be displays of various religions in my city's park right now? All lit up. They do it every year. And there are Pagan gatherings in parks here. There are several Pagan groups in Iowa. Iowa is much more diverse than you seem to think it is.

Stop speaking for places you obviously know nothing about.

Anyway, the solution to where there is discrimination is to stand up to it, not just to deny everyone.

1- That is not everywhere and you know it.

 

[Draka]

1- That is not everywhere and you know it.

Ah, but it is somewhere and proof that discrimination is not everywhere. So, instead of making blanket statements of how you think it is and "should" be everywhere, why don't you just admit that where there does happen to be discrimination that it should be remedied so that all are afforded equal enjoyment of the beautiful lands and resources of our country?

 

[Ingledsva]

Ah, but it is somewhere and proof that discrimination is not everywhere. So, instead of making blanket statements of how you think it is and "should" be everywhere, why don't you just admit that where there does happen to be discrimination that it should be remedied so that all are afforded equal enjoyment of the beautiful lands and resources of our country?

I've already said it would be nice if all could sit side by side - but they can't - and thus we follow the law.

If all are not allowed the same public access - then none should be allowed - as that is by default fostering a particular religion - which is against our laws.

 

[Magic Man]

So, here'e part of the OP:

The constitution doesn't allow for the curtailing of free speech that one or some might find "offensive," so long as it isn't hate speech. Because it was a nativity scene at issue, we can infer that someone was trying to have it banned on the basis of constitutionality. Since the appearance of the scene doesn't constitute the making of a law providing for the establishment of a religion, I don't see how it can be unconstitutional for such a thing to appear on public property.

The issue in court was never whether a nativity scene should be allowed on public grounds. The issue was how to handle this specific situation. The determination was to shut the whole thing down, not because of separation of church and state, but because they didn't want to deal with the headache.

 

[Walkntune]

Hello everyone. Havent been on in awhile. As far as the OP goes if you don't believe in Jesus and the whole thing is just a fairy tale to you then why not just ignore it. Do we have a right to tell schools to take all books of fairytales out of the system. If we did I suppose we would remove all of the history books as well!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If all are not allowed the same public access - then none should be allowed - as that is by default fostering a particular religion ...

Why is that fostering?

 

[Magic Man]

Hello everyone. Havent been on in awhile. As far as the OP goes if you don't believe in Jesus and the whole thing is just a fairy tale to you then why not just ignore it.

How does this relate to the OP?

Do we have a right to tell schools to take all books of fairytales out of the system. If we did I suppose we would remove all of the history books as well!

I'm not sure how this is related to either the OP or the first part of your post, but since when do fairy tales have a place in public schools? And why would we take history books out of public schools?

 

[Father Heathen]

Hello everyone. Havent been on in awhile. As far as the OP goes if you don't believe in Jesus and the whole thing is just a fairy tale to you then why not just ignore it. Do we have a right to tell schools to take all books of fairytales out of the system. If we did I suppose we would remove all of the history books as well!

The issue isn't the content or subject matter itself, but with the fact that tax money and public land are being used to promote it.

 

[Skwim]

The issue in court was never whether a nativity scene should be allowed on public grounds. The issue was how to handle this specific situation. The determination was to shut the whole thing down, not because of separation of church and state, but because they didn't want to deal with the headache.

Exactly!