• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Myth Or History?

Colt

Well-Known Member
Religious debates always come to the same point. Some demand evidence for God (God's self-revelation), others present religious stories as historical evidence.

Theists, why (by what criteria) do you accept some stories as literally true and others as myth? For example why do you think OT Bible stories really happened and stories about Zeus, Prometheus, Orfeo etc. didn't happen?

In the same way that parables aren't true stories, yet they contain spiritual truths, the evolution of religion on an evolutionary world progresses from baseless ghost fear up to the reception of revealed religion. We are all children of God and as children our early concepts of reality are simply the scafolding for a more mature understanding of reality. IMOP


"Religion is so vital that it persists in the absence of learning. It lives in spite of its contamination with erroneous cosmologies and false philosophies; it survives even the confusion of metaphysics. In and through all the historic vicissitudes of religion there ever persists that which is indispensable to human progress and survival: the ethical conscience and the moral consciousness." Urantia Book 1955
 

River Sea

Active Member
Religious debates always come to the same point. Some demand evidence for God (God's self-revelation), others present religious stories as historical evidence.

Theists, why (by what criteria) do you accept some stories as literally true and others as myth? For example why do you think OT Bible stories really happened and stories about Zeus, Prometheus, Orfeo etc. didn't happen?

  • Similar stories exist in the Indus Valley and can be shared here in this thread.
  • The Meena community believes they are descended from Manu (Noah or Vaivaswat Manu), a local flood that took place at Jalore.
    Flood Jalore.jpeg
 
Last edited:

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Theists, why (by what criteria) do you accept some stories as literally true and others as myth?
They'll never be literally true - even the Sagas have heavy elements of embellishment and glorification - but if a story can be verified by other sources and even physical evidence, that goes a long way to help it. For some myths it's also about what we can see with our own two eyes, to see the lesson or representation inherent in the story. This doesn't make the events of the myth true, exactly, but more a story crafted around true events or activities (e.g. the seasons, harvest, etc).
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Personally speaking, I think that there are stories in the Bible, especially some about Jesus, that were borrowed from and modified from ancient pagan religions that existed before the Bible and Christianity. For example, the stories of Jesus' crucifixion, death, and resurrection are similar to those of Attis, the Phrygian-Greek god of vegetation (1250 BCE). According to the stories of Attis, he was divinely born of a virgin; he was hung on a tree and died; he descended into the underworld after his death; he was resurrected after three days; and he brought salvation with him upon his rebirth. The article "Attis: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, Crucified and Resurrected after Three Days" contains further stories about Attis and Jesus that share a few more similarities. Furthermore, there are several more parallels between the stories of Jesus and other pagan Christlike figures that precede both the Bible and Christianity.

For example, these articles, "10 Christ-Like Figures that Predate Jesus" and "Other Gods That Rose From the Dead in Spring Before Jesus Christ," provide several more examples of pagan Christlike figures whose lives parallel Jesus', including being born of a virgin, experiencing the devil's temptation before beginning an earthly ministry, healing the sick miraculously, dying to atone for humanity, descending into the underworld after death, and being resurrected from the dead after three days. I think it's important to remember that the savior story about Jesus isn't the first of its kind, and I don't think it should be considered any more credible than the other Christlike stories that are mentioned in the articles I linked. Personally, I think these other stories clearly prove that Christianity isn't unique, despite the claims by Christians that the Bible is divinely inspired by God and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world. In my opinion, these other stories about Christlike figures demonstrate that Christianity was heavily influenced by paganism.

And lastly, I think that it's also possible that a few of the stories about Jesus were intentionally embellished by his faithful disciples and other followers to make him appear to be more than what he really was. I think it's possible that, if Jesus ever existed in the first place, he was simply a well-liked religious teacher whose loyal followers purposely spread false stories about him to make him seem godlike.
 
Last edited:

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Probably the main reason for the different religions is that some people just rather worship something else than the one and only true God.

I'd say that the main reason for the different religions is the same as the reason there are different languages. People invent them both using imagination. As a result, we end up with nesting hierarchies of each - families of families of religions. If religion were the result of the interaction of man with an actual god, there would be only one, the way that there is only one periodic chart of the elements, which resulted from the interaction of man with actual elements. This is the power of empiricism.

a 'truth' that may only be presented through myth.

I am aware of no truth that can't be expressed in plain English but can be expressed through a myth, but we may be using different definitions of truth. I reserve the word for things that are demonstrably correct. You might be of somewhat the same mind given your use of quotes around the word.

In and through all the historic vicissitudes of religion there ever persists that which is indispensable to human progress and survival: the ethical conscience and the moral consciousness.

Yet religions consistently fail to meet humanistic standards for morality, which are based in the application of reason and compassion to evidence, not ancient standards that contain false and irrational beliefs and which fail to address many modern problems. Christian scripture misses freedom of and from religion, democracy, and the abolition of slavery while promoting homophobia and atheophobia. So what value is religion and religious scripture then if not as a moral compass? These mysterious truths in myths? I'm still wondering what those are, or what value people think they hold. All except the fundamentalists seem to agree that it isn't useful for understanding how the world works ("It's not a science book") or what happened in the past ("It's not a history book").

The thing to understand is that the actual events are no longer relevant to the purpose of presenting the mythical story to others.

Of course. The claims have been debunked. And yes, these claims were believed to be accurate until it became untenable to believe that, and suddenly, we have revisionism - they were never meant to be believed literally. Of course they were, and to be obeyed to the letter. They stoned people to death for such violations. Yet we are asked to believe that there was wiggle room in interpreting the myths. Take a time machine back to OT days and try disregarding the commandment to obey the sabbath and see what happens to you. See how much latitude you get in interpretation. Tell them that it wasn't meant literally, but instead represents some hidden truth, then prepare to die.

And I understand that those who embrace religion find my words harsh and probably offensive. They will call them narrow, but they don't rebut them. They don't falsify them. They don't make arguments that show them to be wrong. They just go on telling me about truth and value that is claimed but never revealed in these threads. Sorry, but I find those words to be a disservice to those who believe them and go searching for truth in a holy book, and feel obliged to make the counterargument, since it is never successfully rebutted. If it could be, that would mean it was wrong, I would see that, and stop making what would then be a debunked claim. But the opposite happens.

Archaeologically: When we reconstruct what we find archaeologically, we find that again and again it supports the narrative.

Are you aware of the archeology regarding the Egyptian captivity, the Exodus, and Joshua and the walls of Jericho? It tells us that those things never happened.

The common thread of the narrative: When people that are labelled as prophets write the narrative which, in many instances, did not even know what the other person wrote and yet the narrative is either exactly the same or have the same message, we find that something supernatural is in the making.

And yet the fact that the religions disagree about almost everything is part of my reason for calling them fiction.

Prophetic: When things are declared and then hundreds of years later come to pass with, in some cases, statement that are too exact to be coincidental, it give credence to what is written.

Once again, the failure of prophecy is good evidence that man has no contact with prescient entities. What you call evidence for belief is evidence for disbelief if one relies on the criteria of critical thought.

Mathematical: The statistical improbability that one man, Jesus, can fulfill prophetic messianic prophecies is so astronomical as to be a literal impossibility and yet it was fulfilled

And again. Jesus doesn't resemble the OT messianic prophecy at all.

Personal: When I gave my life to Jesus I said, "Either the Bible is true or false. I will start with the position that it is true and then I will test the sucker and will find out soon enough if it is false. The impact it has had in my life, the experiences that conform to what is written, the truths that have unfolded and changed, well... after 40 years I am still testing "the sucker" and it has held to be so true as that now it has removed all doubt.

If you've read my story of being a Christian and why I left the faith, you know that it was just the opposite for me. I did the same as you, but came to the opposite conclusion. From an earlier post:

"I became a Christian, and approached the experience as if it might be what it claimed for itself or not. I remember distinctly agreeing with myself to suspend disbelief until I had had a chance to try this religion out and like a pair of shoes, see if it fit or not, or became more comfortable over time. Although I was a believer for many years, I think that it was already too late for me to believe by faith. My belief was based in experience - the euphoria my charismatic first pastor could generate during a church service, which I interpreted as the Holy Spirit."

Later, after moving cross country, I tried multiple other congregations, all dead. I learned that I had misinterpreted that euphoria, and realized that I had stumbled onto a rare preacher first. The Spirit would have followed me. By this time, I could see that these shoes weren't ever going to fit if I didn't suspend disbelief permanently, which is essentially abandoning critical thought altogether.

Abraham and Moses were men sent to warn by God..

So not mythical, symbolic truths, but historical events.

Why do so many people believe in God? Do you really think that it is just whim?

It's not because a god exists. Why do so many people believe in Santa Claus? Because if you live in the right place, you will be told he is real, and you will believe that until somebody tells you he isn't.

Why is it that people can study Divinity for many years, if there is no evidence of the Divine?

Perhaps you should ask those who did and later declared that there was no evidence for their belief: Atheists in the Pulpit: Clergy Who Are Non-Believers - Owlcation

I would agree .. the Bible is not a science book .. neither is it a history book. It is a collection of texts of varying age and author.

So why study it? For the myths and prophesies? For its moral guidance?

It doesn't need to be accurate, in order to learn about the core beliefs that it contains .. that men were chosen by God to warn and guide people .. the ten commandments, for example.

And what is the value in that? Are the Ten Commandments accurate? Are the claims about its deity mythic or accurate? Does it really deem homosexuals and atheists abominations or is that allegory for something else. What rule exists for the individual believer to decide which words to read literally and which he can change to mean something else? What's the basis for calling the Garden story myth but the resurrection history? These are all rhetorical questions needing no answer. They are a statement that believers have no such criteria in question form, and that they make these decisions based in no rule.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Of course. The claims have been debunked.
No "claims" were ever made. Stories were told, and then eventually written down, based often on some actual events, but then developed and repeated for the purpose of conveying some idealized truth.
And yes, these claims were believed to be accurate until it became untenable to believe that, and suddenly, we have revisionism - they were never meant to be believed literally
You have no idea what the people that created and used these myths believed about them. It's quite likely that just as today, some will have accepted then as actual, while others understood them as symbolic,. And in the end, it didn't matter then any more than it matters, now. Because the point of these stories was never to be factually accurate, and there has never been any need for factual accuracy for these mythical stories to represent the ideals as intended.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Are you aware of the archeology regarding the Egyptian captivity, the Exodus, and Joshua and the walls of Jericho? It tells us that those things never happened.

I disagree.

And yet the fact that the religions disagree about almost everything is part of my reason for calling them fiction.

I am fine with your personal viewpoints, but it doesn't negate mine.

Once again, the failure of prophecy is good evidence that man has no contact with prescient entities. What you call evidence for belief is evidence for disbelief if one relies on the criteria of critical thought.

I disagree. I see it as two people looking at the same evidence and coming to a different conclusion but not the lack of evidence.

And again. Jesus doesn't resemble the OT messianic prophecy at all.

I disagree... but they disagreed in Jesus' time too so we are still running par for the course. )

If you've read my story of being a Christian and why I left the faith, you know that it was just the opposite for me. I did the same as you, but came to the opposite conclusion. From an earlier post:

"I became a Christian, and approached the experience as if it might be what it claimed for itself or not. I remember distinctly agreeing with myself to suspend disbelief until I had had a chance to try this religion out and like a pair of shoes, see if it fit or not, or became more comfortable over time. Although I was a believer for many years, I think that it was already too late for me to believe by faith. My belief was based in experience - the euphoria my charismatic first pastor could generate during a church service, which I interpreted as the Holy Spirit."

Later, after moving cross country, I tried multiple other congregations, all dead. I learned that I had misinterpreted that euphoria, and realized that I had stumbled onto a rare preacher first. The Spirit would have followed me. By this time, I could see that these shoes weren't ever going to fit if I didn't suspend disbelief permanently, which is essentially abandoning critical thought altogether.

Maybe the difference is how we approached it. I remember trying the cold waters of a pool. As I stuck my foot in it and "brrrr" - not going in that pool. Other times it just plunged in and enjoyed it.

If you believed it was "too late" - it was. If you approached it as "an experience" - you got an experience. If you tried it as a religion, Jesus found religion lacking as did you. I even find it difficult to "suspend disbelief" - but I am not you.


but do hope you have a meaningful journey as you pursue your faith
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I'd say that the main reason for the different religions is the same as the reason there are different languages. People invent them both using imagination. As a result, we end up with nesting hierarchies of each - families of families of religions. If religion were the result of the interaction of man with an actual god, there would be only one, the way that there is only one periodic chart of the elements, which resulted from the interaction of man with actual elements. This is the power of empiricism.



I am aware of no truth that can't be expressed in plain English but can be expressed through a myth, but we may be using different definitions of truth. I reserve the word for things that are demonstrably correct. You might be of somewhat the same mind given your use of quotes around the word.



Yet religions consistently fail to meet humanistic standards for morality, which are based in the application of reason and compassion to evidence, not ancient standards that contain false and irrational beliefs and which fail to address many modern problems. Christian scripture misses freedom of and from religion, democracy, and the abolition of slavery while promoting homophobia and atheophobia. So what value is religion and religious scripture then if not as a moral compass? These mysterious truths in myths? I'm still wondering what those are, or what value people think they hold. All except the fundamentalists seem to agree that it isn't useful for understanding how the world works ("It's not a science book") or what happened in the past ("It's not a history book").



Of course. The claims have been debunked. And yes, these claims were believed to be accurate until it became untenable to believe that, and suddenly, we have revisionism - they were never meant to be believed literally. Of course they were, and to be obeyed to the letter. They stoned people to death for such violations. Yet we are asked to believe that there was wiggle room in interpreting the myths. Take a time machine back to OT days and try disregarding the commandment to obey the sabbath and see what happens to you. See how much latitude you get in interpretation. Tell them that it wasn't meant literally, but instead represents some hidden truth, then prepare to die.

And I understand that those who embrace religion find my words harsh and probably offensive. They will call them narrow, but they don't rebut them. They don't falsify them. They don't make arguments that show them to be wrong. They just go on telling me about truth and value that is claimed but never revealed in these threads. Sorry, but I find those words to be a disservice to those who believe them and go searching for truth in a holy book, and feel obliged to make the counterargument, since it is never successfully rebutted. If it could be, that would mean it was wrong, I would see that, and stop making what would then be a debunked claim. But the opposite happens.



Are you aware of the archeology regarding the Egyptian captivity, the Exodus, and Joshua and the walls of Jericho? It tells us that those things never happened.



And yet the fact that the religions disagree about almost everything is part of my reason for calling them fiction.



Once again, the failure of prophecy is good evidence that man has no contact with prescient entities. What you call evidence for belief is evidence for disbelief if one relies on the criteria of critical thought.



And again. Jesus doesn't resemble the OT messianic prophecy at all.



If you've read my story of being a Christian and why I left the faith, you know that it was just the opposite for me. I did the same as you, but came to the opposite conclusion. From an earlier post:

"I became a Christian, and approached the experience as if it might be what it claimed for itself or not. I remember distinctly agreeing with myself to suspend disbelief until I had had a chance to try this religion out and like a pair of shoes, see if it fit or not, or became more comfortable over time. Although I was a believer for many years, I think that it was already too late for me to believe by faith. My belief was based in experience - the euphoria my charismatic first pastor could generate during a church service, which I interpreted as the Holy Spirit."

Later, after moving cross country, I tried multiple other congregations, all dead. I learned that I had misinterpreted that euphoria, and realized that I had stumbled onto a rare preacher first. The Spirit would have followed me. By this time, I could see that these shoes weren't ever going to fit if I didn't suspend disbelief permanently, which is essentially abandoning critical thought altogether.



So not mythical, symbolic truths, but historical events.



It's not because a god exists. Why do so many people believe in Santa Claus? Because if you live in the right place, you will be told he is real, and you will believe that until somebody tells you he isn't.



Perhaps you should ask those who did and later declared that there was no evidence for their belief: Atheists in the Pulpit: Clergy Who Are Non-Believers - Owlcation



So why study it? For the myths and prophesies? For its moral guidance?



And what is the value in that? Are the Ten Commandments accurate? Are the claims about its deity mythic or accurate? Does it really deem homosexuals and atheists abominations or is that allegory for something else. What rule exists for the individual believer to decide which words to read literally and which he can change to mean something else? What's the basis for calling the Garden story myth but the resurrection history? These are all rhetorical questions needing no answer. They are a statement that believers have no such criteria in question form, and that they make these decisions based in no rule.
All moral conscience comes from a moral creator. Humanists plagiarize morality in the claim that humans invented them. One can have morals and deny the source, deny God.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You have no idea what the people that created and used these myths believed about them. It's quite likely that just as today, some will have accepted then as actual, while others understood them as symbolic,.

What an odd comment. You think that you know what they likely thought, but that I have no idea.

Of course I know what they thought, and apparently, so do you. The people who made up these stories either believed that a god told them, or they made them up and knew that, but in neither case would they say that the stories weren't accurate just as they don't today when people make up things that they say God told them. Look at the people here on RF riffing on their gods ad lib and ad hoc. They are making up dogma and reporting it as literal truth, just like their ancestors and their ancestors' ancestors. This was treated as deadly serious stuff by the ancient Hebrews just as kosher law and observing the sabbath are by many, and disrespect for it as the word of God was not tolerated until that had to change. And today, we are told almost nobody believes these myths, now that that is acceptable, and worse, that almost nobody ever did.

Do you seriously expect me or anybody else to believe that if an ancient Hebrew decided that the day of rest was symbolic rather than an order from a deity to take a literal day of not working, and he maybe only worked a half day that he wouldn't have been punished? If so, that is naive. Have you been watching the Muslims at all? There's not a lot of wiggle room there when it comes to stonings, pushing people off of towers, or burning people alive for impiety, but they're a few centuries behind the West having been deprived of humanist culture.

This is typical religious revisionism. First, orthodoxy is enforced, liberal elements that would modify that are burned or otherwise persecuted, and eventually, when the truth of the new understanding is self-evident, the church tries to take credit for the idea. One can be sure that the relative number of people who taught and believed the scripture literally and who expected to be punished for questioning it was initially very high and over time evolved into what we see today. Well, I can, but then I don't have defend religion or make it seem like people didn't guess wrong.

All moral conscience comes from a moral creator.

In many religions, conscience isn't even part of the process. Their morals are received.

Humanists plagiarize morality in the claim that humans invented them.

My moral code comes from me. I chose it. And my humanist morality is quite different from Christian morals, which is lacking in multiple areas and reflects the morals human beings invented millennia ago to deal with a life unlike ours. For example, most humanists would find the morals of the Old Testament god to be reprehensible. You probably don't think they plagiarized those values from believers.

Plagiarizing is what the religions do as I just described with religious revisionism. You've seen them claiming credit for science and the US Constitution, right? Christianity contributed nothing to either of those. Christianity expressly forbids freedom of or from religion, a humanist value. It labors to penetrate the church-state wall, a humanist moral contribution. It considers being a part of the world immoral. It calls atheists and gays immoral. These are not humanist values, none of them. Tolerance is, something not found in a book of threats and commandments. Reason is, not faith, which is considered a sin against reason by critical thinkers.
 

Ella S.

*temp banned*
Mathematical: The statistical improbability that one man, Jesus, can fulfill prophetic messianic prophecies is so astronomical as to be a literal impossibility and yet it was fulfilled

I'm sorry to barge in here, but I am a bit obsessed with mathematics, including derivations of mathematics like statistics and logic.

Generally, something cannot be so improbable that it becomes impossible.

It can be noted that under formalizations like modal logic, there are multiple subtypes of alethic impossibility. These include metaphysical impossibility, such as things that cannot be true because they are inherently self-contradictory; temporal impossibility, such as proposed causes that cannot be true because they came after an effect; and nomological impossiblity, which violates the laws of physics.

Out of these, nomological impossibility is the closest to something being considered so implausible that it's a literal impossibility, since the laws of physics come to us through scientific discoveries that could technically be falsified in the future. However, the extremely low statistical likelihood of something does not, in and of itself, make it nomologically impossible.

That said, the miracles attributed to Jesus are nomologically impossible, and that's why there can be no good reason to believe that they actually happened. The events depicted in the gospel are literally impossible, so we can be absolutely certain that they didn't happen. Under epistemic logic, we can positively affirm that we know that the gospels are false.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I'm sorry to barge in here, but I am a bit obsessed with mathematics, including derivations of mathematics like statistics and logic.

Generally, something cannot be so improbable that it becomes impossible.

It can be noted that under formalizations like modal logic, there are multiple subtypes of alethic impossibility. These include metaphysical impossibility, such as things that cannot be true because they are inherently self-contradictory; temporal impossibility, such as proposed causes that cannot be true because they came after an effect; and nomological impossiblity, which violates the laws of physics.

Out of these, nomological impossibility is the closest to something being considered so implausible that it's a literal impossibility, since the laws of physics come to us through scientific discoveries that could technically be falsified in the future. However, the extremely low statistical likelihood of something does not, in and of itself, make it nomologically impossible.

That said, the miracles attributed to Jesus are nomologically impossible, and that's why there can be no good reason to believe that they actually happened. The events depicted in the gospel are literally impossible, so we can be absolutely certain that they didn't happen. Under epistemic logic, we can positively affirm that we know that the gospels are false.
No problem, Ella.

You sound like you are more versed in this subject so let me direct you to the information done by Peter Stoner, Chairman of the departments of mathematics and astronomy at Pasadena City College until 1953; Chairman of the science division, Westmont College, 1953–57; Professor Emeritus of Science, Westmont College; and Professor Emeritus of Mathematics and Astronomy, Pasadena City College.

Peter Stoner’s Calculations Regarding Messianic Prophecy
Peter Stoner calculated the probability of just 8 Messianic prophecies being fulfilled in the life of Jesus. As you read through these prophecies, you will see that all estimates were calculated as conservatively as possible.

  1. The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).
    The average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah to the present (1958) divided by the average population of the earth during the same period = 7,150/2,000,000,000 or 2.8×105.
  2. A messenger will prepare the way for the Messiah (Malachi 3:1).
    One man in how many, the world over, has had a forerunner (in this case, John the Baptist) to prepare his way?
    Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
  3. The Messiah will enter Jerusalem as a king riding on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9).
    One man in how many, who has entered Jerusalem as a ruler, has entered riding on a donkey?
    Estimate: 1 in 100 or 1×102.
  4. The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend and suffer wounds in His hands (Zechariah 13:6).
    One man in how many, the world over, has been betrayed by a friend, resulting in wounds in his hands?
    Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
  5. The Messiah will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12).
    Of the people who have been betrayed, one in how many has been betrayed for exactly 30 pieces of silver?
    Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
  6. The betrayal money will be used to purchase a potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13).
    One man in how many, after receiving a bribe for the betrayal of a friend, has returned the money, had it refused, and then experienced it being used to buy a potter’s field?
    Estimate: 1 in 100,000 or 1×105.
  7. The Messiah will remain silent while He is afflicted (Isaiah 53:7).
    One man in how many, when he is oppressed and afflicted, though innocent, will make no defense of himself?
    Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
  8. The Messiah will die by having His hands and feet pierced (Psalm 22:16).
    One man in how many, since the time of David, has been crucified?
    Estimate: 1 in 10,000 or 1×104.
Multiplying all these probabilities together produces a number (rounded off) of 1×1028. Dividing this number by an estimate of the number of people who have lived since the time of these prophecies (88 billion) produces a probability of all 8 prophecies being fulfilled accidently in the life of one person. That probability is 1in 1017 or 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. That’s one in one hundred quadrillion!

Applying the Science of Probability to the Scriptures | Bible

Since Jesus fulfilled over 45 prophecies, adding the other 40 (IMV) is sufficient for any margin of error - leaving me with the understanding that it isn't natural but supernatural in completion.
 

Ella S.

*temp banned*
Personal: When I gave my life to Jesus I said, "Either the Bible is true or false. I will start with the position that it is true and then I will test the sucker and will find out soon enough if it is false. The impact it has had in my life, the experiences that conform to what is written, the truths that have unfolded and changed, well... after 40 years I am still testing "the sucker" and it has held to be so true as that now it has removed all doubt.

This sounds like an example of motivated reasoning.

Motivated reasoning is when you start with the position that something is true. It's considered to be a form of cognitive error and a type of irrational thinking. Instead, under formal definitions of "rational," the rational approach is to form conclusions only based on evidence which provide strong arguments for them.
 

Ella S.

*temp banned*
No problem, Ella.

You sound like you are more versed in this subject so let me direct you to the information done by Peter Stoner, Chairman of the departments of mathematics and astronomy at Pasadena City College until 1953; Chairman of the science division, Westmont College, 1953–57; Professor Emeritus of Science, Westmont College; and Professor Emeritus of Mathematics and Astronomy, Pasadena City College.

Peter Stoner’s Calculations Regarding Messianic Prophecy
Peter Stoner calculated the probability of just 8 Messianic prophecies being fulfilled in the life of Jesus. As you read through these prophecies, you will see that all estimates were calculated as conservatively as possible.

  1. The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).
    The average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah to the present (1958) divided by the average population of the earth during the same period = 7,150/2,000,000,000 or 2.8×105.
  2. A messenger will prepare the way for the Messiah (Malachi 3:1).
    One man in how many, the world over, has had a forerunner (in this case, John the Baptist) to prepare his way?
    Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
  3. The Messiah will enter Jerusalem as a king riding on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9).
    One man in how many, who has entered Jerusalem as a ruler, has entered riding on a donkey?
    Estimate: 1 in 100 or 1×102.
  4. The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend and suffer wounds in His hands (Zechariah 13:6).
    One man in how many, the world over, has been betrayed by a friend, resulting in wounds in his hands?
    Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
  5. The Messiah will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12).
    Of the people who have been betrayed, one in how many has been betrayed for exactly 30 pieces of silver?
    Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
  6. The betrayal money will be used to purchase a potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13).
    One man in how many, after receiving a bribe for the betrayal of a friend, has returned the money, had it refused, and then experienced it being used to buy a potter’s field?
    Estimate: 1 in 100,000 or 1×105.
  7. The Messiah will remain silent while He is afflicted (Isaiah 53:7).
    One man in how many, when he is oppressed and afflicted, though innocent, will make no defense of himself?
    Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
  8. The Messiah will die by having His hands and feet pierced (Psalm 22:16).
    One man in how many, since the time of David, has been crucified?
    Estimate: 1 in 10,000 or 1×104.
Multiplying all these probabilities together produces a number (rounded off) of 1×1028. Dividing this number by an estimate of the number of people who have lived since the time of these prophecies (88 billion) produces a probability of all 8 prophecies being fulfilled accidently in the life of one person. That probability is 1in 1017 or 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. That’s one in one hundred quadrillion!

Applying the Science of Probability to the Scriptures | Bible

Since Jesus fulfilled over 45 prophecies, adding the other 40 (IMV) is sufficient for any margin of error - leaving me with the understanding that it isn't natural but supernatural in completion.

This doesn't address anything I said in my reply.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
This sounds like an example of motivated reasoning.

Motivated reasoning is when you start with the position that something is true. It's considered to be a form of cognitive error and a type of irrational thinking. Instead, under formal definitions of "rational," the rational approach is to form conclusions only based on evidence which provide strong arguments for them.
They asked for "why" do I accept it. I postulated a position and tested it. Very rational IMV.

Now, if you think it is wrong in your mind, that's is fine. But they did ask "why I believe" and not whether the above fits into how you think. It worked for me.
 

Ella S.

*temp banned*
They asked for "why" do I accept it. I postulated a position and tested it. Very rational IMV.

Now, if you think it is wrong in your mind, that's is fine. But they did ask "why I believe" and not whether the above fits into how you think. It worked for me.

It's not a question of how I think. Here are some resources on motivated reasoning:

Motivated Reasoning - LessWrong

Motivated Reasoning - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

Motivated Reasoning (SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY) - iResearchNet

Confirmation bias

Motivated reasoning is literally, in the formal and academic sense of the term, irrational. I'm not using that as an insult. I'm using it as a technical description of the argument you presented. It is literally irrational.

Which is nothing to be embarrassed about! We're all a little irrational sometimes and rationality takes practice. It's a learned skill, not innate
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It's not a question of how I think. Here are some resources on motivated reasoning:

Motivated Reasoning - LessWrong

Motivated Reasoning - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

Motivated Reasoning (SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY) - iResearchNet

Confirmation bias

Motivated reasoning is literally, in the formal and academic sense of the term, irrational. I'm not using that as an insult. I'm using it as a technical description of the argument you presented It is literally irrational.
I think you are just trying to support your position with a bias as you review what I said. My position is quite mathematical:

postulate
pŏs′chə-lāt″
transitive verb
  1. To assume or assert the truth, reality, or necessity of, especially as a basis of an argument.
  2. To propose as a hypothesis or explanation.
  3. To assume as a premise or axiom; take for granted.
From postulate to proposition to theorem through testing.

At this point you can view it as a proposition although I am convinced it is a theorem.
 

Ella S.

*temp banned*
I think it does. It is so improbable that it is literally impossible unless there is a God that is involved.

If something has a probability of one in one hundred quadrillion of occurring, then that means that it cannot be impossible since it has some chance of occurring. For something to be impossible, it must necessarily be false.
 
Top