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Myth Or History?

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Your post #15 only gets you to "I think my god is different from all the other gods." It doesn't get you to "God is not a god."
..well, it's all word games really..

The Oxford Dictionary of English defines deity as a god or goddess, or anything revered as divine.

God is a monotheist conception of the Supreme Being and principal object of faith.

..so by the Oxford dictionary definition, God is a deity .. a god.
..or more accurately THE GOD .. because all other gods are created, and not Divine.

Naturally, you will want to claim that none of them are and they are equally fictitious .. but that is not borne out by the evidence.
If it were true, then we would see more people believing that various different gods are Divine, and some kind of evidence to back it up.

It also stands to reason. God is not part of the Creation.
If He were, He would have created Himself, which is totally illogical.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You miss the point .. He is not "my god".
I do not worship gods.
I worship God .. He is the Creator of the universe, and has no partner in creation.
"My cat is such a cat that I've even named him 'Cat'... but he is not a cat."

If you have another claim, that "some gods" are responsible, and from another planet or what have you, you might like to share it with us all? :)
If you think this question is relevant, then I'd say you've misunderstood the nature of our conversation.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Two types human thinkers.

Thinking for self human survival within natural laws.

The human theist who applied maths thesis to get gain then build metal machine. Destroyer warning a human science community.

Who historic destroyed earths gas mass as one huge mass body out of heavens. A long time ago by machines metal maths. Exact.

Life was surviving bio sacrificed ever since. Ice melted so water biology is saved by ice melt water oxygenated. Mainly water wasnt gas mass body replaced.

We Had not ever had the atmosphere mass body put back.

Men of science lied.

Teaching ice remassed in its pressure mass body cooler water allowed DNA to re emerge. Cooled water nothing to do with gas mass heavens body replacement.

Taught men of science exact warning.

We Never owned gas mass in space returned. Proven life on earth still sick.

About a million of years has passed missing that heavens body. Estimate.

Men's mind lied.

2012 was when Infinity space shutting of one third star earth attack. By spatial pressure to reinstate a huge reaction of causes. Science religious man stated would put the origin body mass of earth heavens back.

Men who lied theoried it was slowly emerging as if nearly a million years of new mass above had returned. As if now they could remove it again owning life remaining the same bio.

It hasn't even come back as men's science hasn't allowed Infinity its reaction. Womb birthed heavens return year 2012 prediction a huge reaction.

Now they are on their way to removing two millions years of earths heavens mass as our total bio destruction. What the warning was advised for. It had not yet returned the body mass.

For lying as a theist.

As science has in fact said exact maths advice. Man of theory said he's giving earths heavens to machine metals gas technology only. Not bio supportive.

As our bio life is iron metal not AI nuclear transmitters metals. Therefore no biology of red cells blood should be damaged ever. As a natural heavens teaching.

As it was an exact teaching about life's water biology heavens. There is no science argument against bio red celled blood living conditions versus a thinker of a wrong mind state.

Maths told him he is wrong already.

Fully informed he's ignored his own advice.
 

Ella S.

*temp banned*
I'll bet that you don't get a responsive answer to that - one that provides criteria that allow one to predict which myths the responder will accept or reject better than whether the myth comes out of a preferred book or another source. I suspect that you agree. The sine qua non of a faith-based belief is that it be unjustified.

Incidentally, between history and myth is legend - mixture of the two.



Yet metaphor and allegory (and simile and parable and fable) are literary forms that creation myths, for example, don't fit. In each case, these literary forms involve substitution of what is known with symbols. Symbol, metaphor, and allegory imply substitutions mutatis mutandis (this for that in 1:1 correspondence) of something symbolic for something literal and specific that the author has in mind. The bitter fox and the boy who cried wolf represent specific types of people engaging in familiar behaviors. The prodigal son also represents another classic type.

Myths are guesses at the unknown. One has to have an idea of what one is symbolizing or allegorizing to call it that. Plato's allegory of the cave is symbolic of man's plight of having only a partial view of reality, the man symbolic of mankind, the shadow on the cave representing man's limited ability to perceive reality - his filtered perceptions. The five Olympic rings are symbols representing the five continents that participate.

Likewise regarding metaphor such as "She was the apple of his eye." Apple is a symbol for something appealing and desired in the metaphor. The author knows exactly what the apple stands for, and so do we - an appealing female of some age and species.

And allegory. Gulliver's Travels is a political allegory in which fantastical fictional characters substitute for prominent historical figures like Walpole in the British politics of Swift's era, symbolized by the rope dancer Flimnap. We know what these things stand for, and they are specific, not place-holders for what is not known.

These stories are simply guesses, and erroneous ones if one accepts the scientific narrative. But what believer wants to call his sacred texts error? Symbol, metaphor, and allegory all sound better. The Mesopotamians and Vikings also guessed wrong, but we don't mind calling them wrong guesses, or myths, and we don't view them as being "deeply symbolic," nor call them allegories, which require specific referents as outlined. They're also just wrong guesses.

And where is the truth in them to which you refer? I think your definition of truth might be very different from mine. The Tower of Babel myth exists because of the truth that there exist multiple languages and that people often can't understand one another, but the story contains no truth - just another wrong guess about why these languages exist. Where's the truth in the Garden myth? It too is based in a truth - that man is mortal and must suffer and labor to survive - but sheds no light on why that is. It's just another wrong guess. And the truth underlying Job must be that bad things happen to good people. All of these observations need to be reconciled with the idea of a tri-omni deity, but the myths generated to explain them contain no truth about why these things are the case - just wrong guesses.

The flood myth is interesting, because one must ask why it's in the Bible. What truth inspired people to describe their perfect god as imperfect - as making an error, regretting it, and attempting to correct it. That they have seen floods that didn't cover all land? It doesn't seem like enough to extrapolate that fact into a punitive, global, life-sterilizing flood. I have an interesting hypothesis. Somebody found seashells or other marine fossils on the highest mountains. That might general a global flood myth. Apparently, all land was once submerged. That could only be an act of God, and as with the Garden and Tower myths, it must have been a punishment for sin, one involving nearly the entire human race.

But notice that by that reckoning, the flood story isn't metaphor or allegory - just error accounting for an observation.

I don't actually think that most of these myths, including Noah's ark, were meant literally. I think they're better understood as folk tales, like Paul Bunyan. It's important to remember that a lot of these ancient texts were written down from re-telling of cultural stories and that we have evidence that these stories changed depending on the time and place. The exact details probably weren't as important as the general theme behind the stories.

Not all of them are necessarily going to originally have a moral or a theme. The Brothers Grimm actually invented a lot of the morals they put in their re-telling of German folk tales. It's a false dichotomy that these stories were either taken literally or elaborate metaphors. Sometimes they're just stories that resonate with a whole group of people.

Eventually, as that group of people changes, they regard their own stories differently and might change them a bit to convey this new meaning. It happens a lot as these cultures evolve.

I am a bit biased here, though. I am interpreting history in a way in which theism evolves because of "operant conditioning chambers" that make people begin to believe that the personifications of animist metaphor are more literal than they actually are. It's one thing to tell a story with the personification of the sky where someone trades cattle with it to bring rain to their crops. It's another thing if you (incorrectly) see the death of some of your cattle as answered by rainfall the next day (ETA: because that story is fresh on your mind), so you begin to sacrifice cattle more regularly to keep your plants growing.

I think we should keep in mind how closely linked the development of elaborate magical rituals is to the increasing complexity of religious ceremonies here. I actually think believers are right that their texts shouldn't be taken literally and that should be encouraged until they give up their beliefs in magic like prayer or the eucharist, too.
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
Two types human thinkers.

Thinking for self human survival within natural laws.

The human theist who applied maths thesis to get gain then build metal machine. Destroyer warning a human science community.

Who historic destroyed earths gas mass as one huge mass body out of heavens. A long time ago by machines metal maths. Exact.

Life was surviving bio sacrificed ever since. Ice melted so water biology is saved by ice melt water oxygenated. Mainly water wasnt gas mass body replaced.

We Had not ever had the atmosphere mass body put back.

Men of science lied.

Teaching ice remassed in its pressure mass body cooler water allowed DNA to re emerge. Cooled water nothing to do with gas mass heavens body replacement.

Taught men of science exact warning.

We Never owned gas mass in space returned. Proven life on earth still sick.

About a million of years has passed missing that heavens body. Estimate.

Men's mind lied.

2012 was when Infinity space shutting of one third star earth attack. By spatial pressure to reinstate a huge reaction of causes. Science religious man stated would put the origin body mass of earth heavens back.

Men who lied theoried it was slowly emerging as if nearly a million years of new mass above had returned. As if now they could remove it again owning life remaining the same bio.

It hasn't even come back as men's science hasn't allowed Infinity its reaction. Womb birthed heavens return year 2012 prediction a huge reaction.

Now they are on their way to removing two millions years of earths heavens mass as our total bio destruction. What the warning was advised for. It had not yet returned the body mass.

For lying as a theist.

As science has in fact said exact maths advice. Man of theory said he's giving earths heavens to machine metals gas technology only. Not bio supportive.

As our bio life is iron metal not AI nuclear transmitters metals. Therefore no biology of red cells blood should be damaged ever. As a natural heavens teaching.

As it was an exact teaching about life's water biology heavens. There is no science argument against bio red celled blood living conditions versus a thinker of a wrong mind state.

Maths told him he is wrong already.

Fully informed he's ignored his own advice.
Rich man science brother said I'm a liar as a theist.

I promised as a self stated my words used a hypocrite to never ever allow nuclear technology or heavens change by technology.

I called myself a hypocrite as my owned reminder.

I was both king and lord rich man whose choice caused my owned life sacrifice in heavens ownership by false status I own. King lord man's owned rich confession as the liar. Stated the holy mans life was poor. A poor man can never be a king.

Instead he said the King of the poor man was now righteously taught. Isn't how he interpreted the teaching today.

Said outrightly and told. Told his self king and lords all proven wrong. Took an oath by society to uphold earths gods laws. As the taught rich humanity.

When I vowed to keep humanity safe. I took that vow of poverty and as a father by non sex. To honour the virgin mother. To claim the non sex man was correct only. View chastity to not own myself. Only organisation Owned.

Why organisation is wrong today.

Riches already owned all gold jewels and city building historic. To support being chaste. My governate supported my place without losses. Then Changed.

Governing demanded payment.

Organisation hence lost its position..as organisation keeps changing in its greed.

I wrote all of the mathematical evidence myself. Said life's hypocrite.

Star fall comes to earth burning spaces gas. Using gases alight to travel is spirits removal only. Our law heavens gas spirit law in Infinity.

If it stopped star fall that gas mass infinity support of earth would return us to our heavens origin fathers life. The exact teaching known.

All I had to do was respect my humans innocence. That stars fall lied to my mind about being safe as I'm only water heavens pressure mass supported.

Ice mass.
Water mass.
Cloud density flooding lies about earths origin bio life cell support in theisms about pressures. As it changes moves its mass.

We're only just surviving man's activated earth science one third stars fell. As the sun losing its mass changes Infinities spatial opening pressures.

Is the only reason we're still alive.

You were told outrightly never believe in any AI satanic heavens theme as a human science.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Rich man science brother said I'm a liar as a theist.

I promised as a self stated my words used a hypocrite to never ever allow nuclear technology or heavens change by technology.

I called myself a hypocrite as my owned reminder.

I was both king and lord rich man whose choice caused my owned life sacrifice in heavens ownership by false status I own. King lord man's owned rich confession as the liar. Stated the holy mans life was poor. A poor man can never be a king.

Instead he said the King of the poor man was now righteously taught. Isn't how he interpreted the teaching today.

Said outrightly and told. Told his self king and lords all proven wrong. Took an oath by society to uphold earths gods laws. As the taught rich humanity.

When I vowed to keep humanity safe. I took that vow of poverty and as a father by non sex. To honour the virgin mother. To claim the non sex man was correct only. View chastity to not own myself. Only organisation Owned.

Why organisation is wrong today.

Riches already owned all gold jewels and city building historic. To support being chaste. My governate supported my place without losses. Then Changed.

Governing demanded payment.

Organisation hence lost its position..as organisation keeps changing in its greed.

I wrote all of the mathematical evidence myself. Said life's hypocrite.

Star fall comes to earth burning spaces gas. Using gases alight to travel is spirits removal only. Our law heavens gas spirit law in Infinity.

If it stopped star fall that gas mass infinity support of earth would return us to our heavens origin fathers life. The exact teaching known.

All I had to do was respect my humans innocence. That stars fall lied to my mind about being safe as I'm only water heavens pressure mass supported.

Ice mass.
Water mass.
Cloud density flooding lies about earths origin bio life cell support in theisms about pressures. As it changes moves its mass.

We're only just surviving man's activated earth science one third stars fell. As the sun losing its mass changes Infinities spatial opening pressures.

Is the only reason we're still alive.

You were told outrightly never believe in any AI satanic heavens theme as a human science.
Theists man's told answer.
Suns burnt out space position after mass removed is a cold black mass. Science today says is God.

You must believe me he says in his owned science mind.

Only the suns loss of burning mass keeps infinity space pressures opening by mass removed to keep all other bodies in space infinity cooled. Holy.

Tried to take that conscious advice as a warning only in his mind AI memory.....
and tried to make it a new resource theory.

As men Prove they no longer own nor use a spiritual natural humans conscious mind awareness. As just men.

Make documentaries about space conditions owning no meaning to life on earth as a human as another proof.

As the subject owns no natural planet earths now comparison whatsoever.

Now is present. Present the owned human gift of life now.

Science said not listening again life is instant.

Instead try to make instant a thesis.

Natural mind just agrees as the first advice is correct once only.

The warning how men use consciousness is adverse to our first father's mind..words.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
John Lennon sang:-
"God is a concept, in which we measure our pain."

I would agree that God is a concept .. a non-physical concept .. an unable to be precisely defined concept.

The gods you mention above have parents and siblings and what have you. There is no shortage of such examples.

God is not "a god", and the Qur'an confirms the truth of the prophets of old in the Bible. I do not believe anybody has managed to prove that Muhammad, peace be with him, is deluded or fraudulent .. same for Jesus.
Jahweh has no parents and siblings so the Noah and other stories are true? An interesting point though.

What about Abraham, Moses... and on the other hand Oedipus...?
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Naturally, you will want to claim that none of them are and they are equally fictitious .. but that is not borne out by the evidence.
If it were true, then we would see more people believing that various different gods are Divine, and some kind of evidence to back it up.
Ad populum fallacy. And besides that you forgot that many people don't believe in any God or gods.

Exactly, all god(s) stories are equally fictitious. This is born out by evidence - the evidence is lack of evidence that any of these stories are true.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
When a human man has lost his owned mind.

He proves it by what he believes then discusses. Words. He even uses natural words owned in nature on earth against it.

He's born from microbial human bio life. Human sex now present as his human gift of life. Sex. Two humans origin one human by two species. On earth.

He however talks about earths non existence billions of years ago...intention obvious.

Data of man's human science says he's owner origin biology human now. In a sacrificed baby human life.

Maths says yes DNA health is missing. Of humans for humans.

The theist says I'll make a theory about billions of years in space only. To now my owned life human man. As if he's actually first ever human man on earth now.

Now I'm human. I'm instant.

Congratulates himself as if he's sane.

Information expressed says otherwise.

Now is by sex. Any human born now both today is by sex.

A human origin many earths years ago. Dusts..skeletal. now in science.
Human as a baby to adult origin...dusts skeletal.

Dusts..dusts.

Maths human science used data says origin human life human as parent and as baby are both dusts. Says it in aware bio conscious human mind dusts dusts. Yet its all dead destroyed humans. Agreed. Even confessed he agrees. Now.

Now means living human biology by human sex only. His behaviour religious warning versus science. Is natural man not religious man.

How isn't that exact human science advice?

Why human theists non stop intent...began their using intent of maths science theory is direct to metals first. Not biology. Is human sciences destroyer warning.

A metal in science by data is in fact in out of space without a planets rock formation present as the only god of science is earth rock.

How are you space cosmologist correct as themed...billions of years ago earth did not exist is your human now answer. Destroy earth.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...For example why do you think OT Bible stories really happened and stories about Zeus, Prometheus, Orfeo etc. didn't happen?

I think it is possible that all myths have some truth in them. For example, the idea of Greek gods may have come from the Biblical idea of many gods and sons of God:

God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.
Psalms 82:1

I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Nevertheless you shall die like men, And fall like one of the rulers."
Psalms 82:6-7

Now it happened on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, that Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6

It happened, when men began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters were born to them, that God's sons saw that men's daughters were beautiful, and they took for themselves wives of all that they chose.
Genesis 6:1-2

I believe there was beings that were like gods and giants. And for other than the ancestors of Jews they may had different names and they may have treated them in a different way. It really looks like all the legends and myths are speaking of same matters, but from a different point of view. It may be that there is also some wrong ideas and details that are remembered wrongly, but the basic ideas are really similar. And because the basic ideas are really same, it makes it more believable. For example, many cultures have an idea of supreme God, Great Father, or Great Spirit. I think this would be the case, if all people come from same origin. But at some point, the original message gets distorted, people start to follow different ideas and we get lot of different belief systems.

Probably the main reason for the different religions is that some people just rather worship something else than the one and only true God. They could choose to follow a fallen angel that could appear to them as God. There is no Biblical reason to deny the existence of other gods. It is possible that they have existed, people just should not keep anything else as their God than the Bible God.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Religious debates always come to the same point. Some demand evidence for God (God's self-revelation), others present religious stories as historical evidence.

Theists, why (by what criteria) do you accept some stories as literally true and others as myth? For example why do you think OT Bible stories really happened and stories about Zeus, Prometheus, Orfeo etc. didn't happen?
For me, I find my stories are true on various levels.

  1. Archaeologically: When we reconstruct what we find archaeologically, we find that again and again it supports the narrative. It has happened so much that even when we haven't found archaeological evidence on one part of history, the preponderance of the veracity of all the other evidences gives credence to the historical stories that have yet to be supported archeologically.
  2. The common thread of the narrative: When people that are labelled as prophets write the narrative which, in many instances, did not even know what the other person wrote and yet the narrative is either exactly the same or have the same message, we find that something supernatural is in the making.
  3. Prophetic: When things are declared and then hundreds of years later come to pass with, in some cases, statement that are too exact to be coincidental, it give credence to what is written.
  4. Mathematical: The statistical improbability that one man, Jesus, can fulfill prophetic messianic prophecies is so astronomical as to be a literal impossibility and yet it was fulfilled
  5. Personal: When I gave my life to Jesus I said, "Either the Bible is true or false. I will start with the position that it is true and then I will test the sucker and will find out soon enough if it is false. The impact it has had in my life, the experiences that conform to what is written, the truths that have unfolded and changed, well... after 40 years I am still testing "the sucker" and it has held to be so true as that now it has removed all doubt.
  6. There are other reasons but these are the main ones.
Thanks for asking.

(Of course, all in light of my signature)
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Most myths begin with actual events, but are then morphed as they're told and retold to better represent the idealized truths that the recounters feel the events signify.

The thing to understand is that the actual events are no longer relevant to the purpose of presenting the mythical story to others. So whatever degree of actual history remains intact is irrelevant. And so, therefor, is this whole argument about whether or not someone believes the mythical story to be historical.

IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER.

Historical accuracy is not required for a mythical story to successfully represent the truth. So whether or not a myth is or isn't historically accurate is just plain irrelevant. We all suspend our disbelief for the sake of any story's cohesion and purpose. Some, only for the duration of the telling, and others for a longer time according to their own desire. But again, this has nothing to do with the purpose of the story, nor it's ability to represent an idealized truth.

But of course this debate will rage on, anyway, because the egos involved will not be dissuaded. No matter how pointless the position they hold forth, is.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Religious debates always come to the same point. Some demand evidence for God (God's self-revelation), others present religious stories as historical evidence.

Theists, why (by what criteria) do you accept some stories as literally true and others as myth? For example why do you think OT Bible stories really happened and stories about Zeus, Prometheus, Orfeo etc. didn't happen?

Good question. According to the Bahā’ī Prophet Baha’u’llah, all truth comes from God and much of it is revealed to us through the Prophets and Messengers.

So as a Baha’i we would consult the Words and Scriptures of the Manifestations.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Jahweh has no parents and siblings so the Noah and other stories are true?
YHWH / Allah / God are all referring to the Creator and Sustainer of the universe..

The accounts of Noah in the Bible are not accurate, imo .. and the flood was not necessarily covering the whole world .. but as far as those that it affected, it might as well have been. :(

What about Abraham, Moses... and on the other hand Oedipus...?
Abraham and Moses were men sent to warn by God..

Oedipus? I have no idea if he actually existed .. as I've already stated, people/creatures with parents and so on are part of the creation, and such 'gods' are an invention of men.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Ad populum fallacy..
I am not saying that the Bible is true, because billions of people believe it to be true.
What I am saying, is that the majority of humans do not consider all "gods" to be equally credible.
Furthemore, the reason for that is not arbitrary.

And besides that you forgot that many people don't believe in any God or gods
We all know that .. so what's your point?

Exactly, all god(s) stories are equally fictitious. This is born out by evidence - the evidence is lack of evidence that any of these stories are true.
I think that that is patently false.
Why do so many people believe in God? Do you really think that it is just whim?
Why is it that people can study Divinity for many years, if there is no evidence of the Divine?
Greek Philosophy is not equivalent to Divinity .. they are separate lines of enquiry.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
There is no Biblical reason to deny the existence of other gods. It is possible that they have existed, people just should not keep anything else as their God than the Bible God.
It depends what you mean by "other gods existing".
There is nothing comparable to God .. no creature or object had anything to do with creation .. neither do they maintain the universe.
Any such beings/things are either invented or part of the creation .. like satan, for example.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Historical accuracy is not required for a mythical story to successfully represent the truth. So whether or not a myth is or isn't historically accurate is just plain irrelevant..
I would agree .. the Bible is not a science book .. neither is it a history book.
It is a collection of texts of varying age and author. It doesn't need to be accurate, in order to learn about the core beliefs that it contains .. that men were chosen by God to warn and guide people .. the ten commandments, for example.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Theists, why (by what criteria) do you accept some stories as literally true and others as myth?

One begins with the 'literal', as presented in the narrative (story) and proceeds to uncover the intent the author wishes to present, a 'truth' that may only be presented through myth.
 
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