My views on LHP

[Mindmaster]

Though not opposites, they would certainly contradict each other.

Maybe in certain methodology, but mostly as a side effect. They can't co-exist within the same human, but they can co-exist easily in a social group. Neither actually has much of an impact on the other. Both are internally trans-formative processes and in that way they are completely the same. =)

This is generally my primary challenge to Abrahamic-based religions. If you cannot effect someones internal spiritual process why do you waste your time actually trying? =) Whether it is RHP or LHP it is personal -- between you and your own inner machinations. What could any priest or prophet do for you? Alas, nothing... nothing at all.. No redeemer nor god can thus save.

Now, that being said in certain orders of faiths there are monks and whatnot whom do work on the proper RHP processes personally -- but, the lay members of the faith have nearly no participation in this nor do the people whom play priest at mass. These orders of monks actually do something on their own behalf to achieve spiritual awareness, and probably know something of it. Though, undoubtedly they are knowing that they must do something not rely on prayer to achieve it. This is the purpose of vows and things. They deny the personality and quiet it aiming toward spiritual knowledge. If you ever see a rich holy man immediately doubt his credentials -- he's missing the point. =) The RHP process cannot work without an active denial of the things that taunt the personality.

There would be no need for this RHP person to to "at war with" the LHP-type. Again, anyone truly knowledgeable knows both paths lead to the same wisdom. It is merely a matter of personal nature which differentiates. The goal of each is completely the same in the truest sense. They _barely_ even conflict past the base operation notion. The RHP person doesn't even view the humanness as bad, but merely an obstacle which interferes with the processing of the information.

It is similar to comparing an aleopathic doctor (M.D.) to a doctor of osteopathic medicine (D.O). They're both doctors who study medicine and heal people, but use different methods... silly business to say one method is better or worse than another. They are different and both work. =)

Wise persons on either path (of which there are so few) can aptly point this out and recommend a course which suits the questioner not themselves. =)

 

[technomage]

The goal of the Western LHP is generally considered further individuation from the larger universe.

That's one _interpretation_ of the goal of Western LHP. I can't see it as the whole picture, though.

 

[technomage]

What if you would stop attacking someone's ideas and instead try to be welcoming sometime? If Technomage wants to discuss the distinction between LHP and RHP, then let them do it. What if you would present your view to start a conversation. I'm sure you guys know what conversations are. If you think the guy is wrong, then by all means, but what I see here is someone who tried to sort out the concepts for themselves and was shot down because it didn't fit the predefined (dare I say dogmatic) views of the responders. Congratulations on opening up LHP for potential students.

No worries ... my views are certainly not guaranteed to be popular on either side of the LHP/RHP fence.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's one _interpretation_ of the goal of Western LHP. I can't see it as the whole picture, though.

Which is why these discussions never get anywhere. We recently had a thread on definitions of the LHP and nobody really agreed with each other. Time to move on, imo.

 

[technomage]

I might be proven wrong, but based on the original post we're not dealing with someone who's good at explaining themselves OR have sorted out their thoughts yet.

A little of both--OK, let's be honest, a LOT of both. I'm pretty good at explaining dry facts and figures, but this ... this has got me puzzled.

I know I said "LHP and RHP are opposites" earlier, but I don't mean they're in opposition. The poles of a battery or of a magnet are opposites, but you have to have both of them to work together. If "complements" is a clearer term, that's cool ... but there is a tension between them, just as there is a tension in a wound-up spring. The tension of potential. The tension of thesis and anti-thesis leading to synthesis. It's not a static system, and it is precisely that lack of static stability that creates the potential for change.

The closest I can come to it is this ... and I do apologize if it sounds confused, because I'm pretty confused bout it. LHP and RHP do contain elements of their opposite, just like the idealized "yin-yang" symbols. Yes, I said earlier that LHP destroys and RHP creates ... but each also contains the element from their complement. LHP rebels against (and in that sense, destroys) the "group identity" to establish the individual. RHP works to establish the group identity (thus creating the group), but to do so it must subsume (and thus "destroy) the individual identity.

So no, to correct my earlier statement, the main axis of LHP/RHP division is not creation-destruction. I'm not sure there IS a main axis for division.

 

[technomage]

Which is why these discussions never get anywhere. We recently had a thread on definitions of the LHP and nobody really agreed with each other. Time to move on, imo.

Actually, I tend to agree. I think the LHP/RHP division is ... artificial. Yes, there are differences in methodology ... but does a difference that's not different enough to be objectively observable actually a difference?

 

[technomage]

Though not opposites, they would certainly contradict each other.

Does the positive terminal of a battery contradict the negative?

 

[Infinitum]

There are already been some very good responses in the thread on what LHP means within personal practice, so I won't add anything else to that right now than that I really suggest studying what Mindmaster said about it earlier in the thread. I think you're missing out on some very important elements within LHP, so I'll present you with some questions instead that will get you (in my opinion) in the right direction. Here goes.

So far you've described LHP/RHP from very social viewpoints. On the other hand how do you think LHP is helpful for someone's personal spiritual growth? Note that I say helpful and not for example visible, because the visible elements are often the most confusing. What makes a practice LHP and how does it differ from its RHP equivalent? Do you think it even makes sense to assume LHP somehow mirrors RHP practices, or are they two entirely separate tool kits?

Other posters in the DIR are of course also welcome to share their thoughts about those questions. Or add their own if you come up with better ones than I did.

 

[Iti oj]

A little of both--OK, let's be honest, a LOT of both. I'm pretty good at explaining dry facts and figures, but this ... this has got me puzzled.

I know I said "LHP and RHP are opposites" earlier, but I don't mean they're in opposition. The poles of a battery or of a magnet are opposites, but you have to have both of them to work together. If "complements" is a clearer term, that's cool ... but there is a tension between them, just as there is a tension in a wound-up spring. The tension of potential. The tension of thesis and anti-thesis leading to synthesis. It's not a static system, and it is precisely that lack of static stability that creates the potential for change.

The closest I can come to it is this ... and I do apologize if it sounds confused, because I'm pretty confused bout it. LHP and RHP do contain elements of their opposite, just like the idealized "yin-yang" symbols. Yes, I said earlier that LHP destroys and RHP creates ... but each also contains the element from their complement. LHP rebels against (and in that sense, destroys) the "group identity" to establish the individual. RHP works to establish the group identity (thus creating the group), but to do so it must subsume (and thus "destroy) the individual identity.

So no, to correct my earlier statement, the main axis of LHP/RHP division is not creation-destruction. I'm not sure there IS a main axis for division.

Better worded this time. I think however lhp makes more then just the individual its also about creation in the sense of being in control and in manifestating ones will.

 

[Iti oj]

Also I feel that the rhp is escapeist while the lhp is more grounded and real world center.

 

[technomage]

So far you've described LHP/RHP from very social viewpoints. On the other hand how do you think LHP is helpful for someone's personal spiritual growth?

To my mind, "social and personal" are yet another complementary axis, like "creation-destruction." Even the most anti-social LHP must live to _some_ extent within the mainstream culture. The only way to totally abandon the culture is to move away from people.

To my mind, growth as an individual that does not make you a better group member is wasted effort. By the same token, growth as a group member that does not make you a better, stronger individual is also wasted effort.

Do you think it even makes sense to assume LHP somehow mirrors RHP practices, or are they two entirely separate tool kits?

Again, from where I sit, there is considerable overlap, and I'm not certain there is any actual distinction. Despite the arguments of (for instance) LaVey or Aquino, there are considerable opportunities for, and insistance upon, individual development in RHP paths. It's not usually emphasized as much as it is within LHP, but it is there.

The major differences that I see between LHP andf RHP are ones of perspective and emphasis. Quite a bit outside of those differences is window dressing.

Perhaps the only difference between the two is the artificial difference that we, as individuals, give them.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Does the positive terminal of a battery contradict the negative?

Hmm, I feel that that isn't a great example... Perhaps more like a battery charging contradicting saving a battery's power.

 

[technomage]

Hmm, I feel that that isn't a great example... Perhaps more like a battery charging contradicting saving a battery's power.

On this, I have to disagree. Based on the way I see it, RHP and LHP do not contradict: at most, they are two sides of the coin. One can emphasize one over the other, and many do ... but to my mind, doing so is (at best) making your path more difficult, and (at worst) making your path out of balance.

And even at that, the earlier post by St. Frankenstein has made me think more and more that perhaps there _is_ no difference.

 

[1137]

On this, I have to disagree. Based on the way I see it, RHP and LHP do not contradict: at most, they are two sides of the coin. One can emphasize one over the other, and many do ... but to my mind, doing so is (at best) making your path more difficult, and (at worst) making your path out of balance.

And even at that, the earlier post by St. Frankenstein has made me think more and more that perhaps there _is_ no difference.

You can't be both a radical individualist and conformist. It's literally - by definition - a contradiction.

 

[technomage]

You can't be both a radical individualist and conformist. It's literally - by definition - a contradiction.

Actually, yes, you can--by choosing where on the "individualism-conformity" spectrum is the best for you at that moment in time, and in the particular circumstances you are in. As a case in point, I can choose to socialize with a group, and to conform within limits of my own comfort with that group, but when I have a difference of opinion or choose a different action, to express my choice without guilt.

Now, you cannot be permanently on both extremes at once ... but to my mind, extremism in any position is a mistake in and of itself--extremism simply for the sake of extremism doubly so.

 

[1137]

Actually, yes, you can--by choosing where on the "individualism-conformity" spectrum is the best for you at that moment in time, and in the particular circumstances you are in. As a case in point, I can choose to socialize with a group, and to conform within limits of my own comfort with that group, but when I have a difference of opinion or choose a different action, to express my choice without guilt.

Now, you cannot be permanently on both extremes at once ... but to my mind, extremism in any position is a mistake in and of itself--extremism simply for the sake of extremism doubly so.

Faking it isn't being it. Just because you tuck your pentagram away doesn't mean it's not sitting on your chest under your shirt - it means youre a successful magician who knows how the world works.

But alas we are talking to an individual from the religion that redefines mainstream fence sitting.

 

[technomage]

Faking it isn't being it.

It's not faking, TDoP. It's choice.

I live in the Bible Belt. While I used to wear a pentacle, I don't anymore (not for fear of the Christians, to be honest, but for not wanting to be associated with some of the Wiccans around here). But when I did, I NEVER put my pentacle inside my shirt.

But alas we are talking to an individual from the religion that redefines mainstream fence sitting.

Yeah, a lot of Wiccans tend to be mugwumps.

THe idea, however, is not to be sitting on the fence--it's to be able to change which side one is on, dynamically, volitionally, and at need.

 

[1137]

Lying to oneself is never healthy. If your Self is so weak that it flip flops in the wind then I'm not sure what's really been accomplished.

 

[technomage]

Lying to oneself is never healthy.

Agreed, with caveats. There are times when self-lies can be adaptive _in specifically restricted circumstances_. Generally speaking, however,

If your Self is so weak that it flip flops in the wind then I'm not sure what's really been accomplished.

So ... my Self must rigidly stick to a course of action, even if that action is not workable due to a change of circumstance? Or do you see it as weakness to interact with my wife in one manner, my children in a different manner, and the church-going door-knockers in yet a different manner?

I interpret the universe in one way while I am in Circle, and another when not in Circle. Part of the power of witchcraft is to be able to change contexts at will.

 

[1137]

Workable - as in magick. The ability to change out your mask at will is different than flip flopping on yourSelf.