My views on LHP

[Saint Frankenstein]

Eh, depends on whose doing the consideration.

That's part of the problem of communicating--the dividing line between RHP and LHP is subjective, the terms are multivalent, and the definitions are slippery.

The goals of Thelema aren't considered LHP.

The goal of the Western LHP is generally considered further individuation from the larger universe. It is opposed to dissolution into something "greater" than oneself. So traditional Thelema's goals aren't LHP, although some of its methods may be considered as such.

 

[1137]

Thelema isn't really considered LHP, especially not its goal.

A Thelemite is simply one who accepts the law of thelema, and one who understands the process and goal of crossing the abyss would know if is very in keeping with the individualist nature of the LHP. Depends and the angle you're looking at it from. Magick would weaken if we started egotistically believing we had objective knowledge that certain systems are true and others are false. Christianity is egotistical in that it never even questions itself - the black brothers are egotistical in that they believe they've found a hiddent truth. The masters of the temple let go of the ego when they realize their own minute place, their objective unimportances, etc.

 

[Infinitum]

What if you would stop attacking someone's ideas and instead try to be welcoming sometime? If Technomage wants to discuss the distinction between LHP and RHP, then let them do it. What if you would present your view to start a conversation. I'm sure you guys know what conversations are. If you think the guy is wrong, then by all means, but what I see here is someone who tried to sort out the concepts for themselves and was shot down because it didn't fit the predefined (dare I say dogmatic) views of the responders. Congratulations on opening up LHP for potential students.

And Technomage. If the thread hasn't entirely put you off already (and I understand if it has), do go on sharing your thoughts on what LHP/RHP is. Ideas don't have to be ready when they come out and there are people here in the DIR who can help you sorting your thoughts out. As you can see LHP people disagree with what you've said so far, but you've also expressed thoughts that are simplifications of what you see posters say here elsewhere. There are older threads in the DIR addressing the subject that might also interest you.

 

[1137]

What if you would stop attacking someone's ideas and instead try to be welcoming sometime? If Technomage wants to discuss the distinction between LHP and RHP, then let them do it. What if you would present your view to start a conversation. I'm sure you guys know what conversations are. If you think the guy is wrong, then by all means, but what I see here is someone who tried to sort out the concepts for themselves and was shot down because it didn't fit the predefined (dare I say dogmatic) views of the responders. Congratulations on opening up LHP for potential students.

You always act all high and mighty like this and it's gotten rather old. If you bothered to find the source of this you'd know the thread was created because Techno made similar claims and we asked for elaboration. Then Techno simply made more claims and continuously refuses to explain anything.

You can swing around words like dogmatic all you want, but the issue is with making unexplained and seemingly rand claims, not a differing of opinions.

 

[Infinitum]

You always act all high and mighty like this and it's gotten rather old. If you bothered to find the source of this you'd know the thread was created because Techno made similar claims and we asked for elaboration. Then Techno simply made more claims and continuously refuses to explain anything.

You can swing around words like dogmatic all you want, but the issue is with making unexplained and seemingly rand claims, not a differing of opinions.

So now I'm high and mighty for asking for some kindness in the DIR? If you think he's a troll, then just report him and forget about it. Do you know how tiring it is to come here and see raging like this time after time? Ask the mods to move the thread to debates or whatever, but get it out of here already. And I genuinely am interested in whether there's a conversation hidden here somewhere. If the responses have been like this before there's no wonder he's coming off as a troll to you. Blerg.

 

[1137]

So now I'm high and mighty for asking for some kindness in the DIR? If you think he's a troll, then just report him and forget about it. Do you know how tiring it is to come here and see raging like this time after time? Ask the mods to move the thread to debates or whatever, but get it out of here already. And I genuinely am interested in whether there's a conversation hidden here somewhere. If the responses have been like this before there's no wonder he's coming off as a troll to you. Blerg.

A conversation where the OP won't explain anything? Enjoy that one. But as far as debating, how can you debate no points? I'm glad this is here, I like an image of the LHP where we dont simply make / accept random claims and move on.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

A Thelemite is simply one who accepts the law of thelema, and one who understands the process and goal of crossing the abyss would know if is very in keeping with the individualist nature of the LHP. Depends and the angle you're looking at it from. Magick would weaken if we started egotistically believing we had objective knowledge that certain systems are true and others are false. Christianity is egotistical in that it never even questions itself - the black brothers are egotistical in that they believe they've found a hiddent truth. The masters of the temple let go of the ego when they realize their own minute place, their objective unimportances, etc.

I was talking about the goal of traditional Thelema, not just Thelemic law itself. Thelema is a whole belief system with its own practices and goals. The law is just one thing that the rest is founded upon. You can agree with the law of Thelema without accepting the other practices and beliefs of the OTO.

 

[Infinitum]

A conversation where the OP won't explain anything? Enjoy that one. But as far as debating, how can you debate no points? I'm glad this is here, I like an image of the LHP where we dont simply make / accept random claims and move on.

I might be proven wrong, but based on the original post we're not dealing with someone who's good at explaining themselves OR have sorted out their thoughts yet. Your approach so far hasn't even taken that into consideration. Now it's very likely that if there was a conversation to be had, it's not going to be happen. That's the issue I'm having here (in addition to that I really hate seeing threads like this in the DIR in the first place).

 

[1137]

I was talking about the goal of traditional Thelema, not just Thelemic law itself. Thelema is a whole belief system with its own practices and goals. The law is just one thing that the rest is founded upon. You can agree with the law of Thelema without accepting the other practices and beliefs of the OTO.

True. But I wouldn't generalize the OTO as Thelema just as I wouldn't call the ONA satanism, if you see my meaning. Originally it was simply about the Law, bringing it into the world, social evolution - then Crowley went nuts with it, lol.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

True. But I wouldn't generalize the OTO as Thelema just as I wouldn't call the ONA satanism, if you see my meaning. Originally it was simply about the Law, bringing it into the world, social evolution - then Crowley went nuts with it, lol.

The OTO is akin to what the Catholic Church is to Catholicism. No, you don't have to agree with all the OTO's practices to be a Thelemite, as there's Catholics who are part of breakaway groups or don't agree with the Roman Catholic Church, but they are pretty much the flagship of Thelema.

 

[1137]

The OTO is akin to what the Catholic Church is to Catholicism. No, you don't have to agree with all the OTO's practices to be a Thelemite, as there's Catholics who are part of breakaway groups or don't agree with the Roman Catholic Church, but they are pretty much the flagship of Thelema.

I think they're just outspoken. I've met more independent Thelemites than OTO members. I always found it weird that he changed so drastically from not wanting to form a flock of sheep to the Crowley we know today.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think they're just outspoken. I've met more independent Thelemites than OTO members. I always found it weird that he changed so drastically from not wanting to form a flock of sheep to the Crowley we know today.

Lol. I know a guy who was one of the higher ups in the Australian OTO. He's been a Thelemite for many years. Definitely one of the most intelligent people I know. He would argue with people who said stuff like that all the time. I guess there's two sides to every story.

 

[Mindmaster]

I think some serious mistakes can be made viewing the RHP and LHP as two opposing things. They aren't in opposition, but merely co-existing. Viewing them in such a fashion will cause one to not see the forest for the trees. I would more accurately say that you can get to the same destination either way -- both ultimately seek truth. It would be better to view them in that way that say Jungian or Freudian psychology are different, but both viable approaches to the subject.

If you get down into the dirty details you will find that both are using a lot of same methods, but maybe to different ends. The key difference lies solely in the personality of the aspirant -- the RHP traveler views humanity as inferior or imperfect and thus orients their practice to nullifying or muting these interfering traits to achieve spiritual perfection. Things are only good or bad to this person based on whether they encourage deviation from that goal. Thus they may view drugs, drinking, and other excessive behaviors in a poor light because they excite the personality and keep them from the ultimate destination. The primary idea being if one managed to blot out the human completely one could likely directly experience the divine truth.

The LHP traveler views their humanity as a tool given to them to perfect which will enable them to experience the ultimate truth if honed well. Instead of that personality, consciousness, and unconsciousness being seen merely as a distraction it is seen as something that needs to be unified into a well-oiled machine. Thus, our LHP person may get drunk for merely the sake of fulfilling understanding why they need to feel that way at the moment. They may place an offering on a pyre, or do ritual magick as our RHP (wo)man may do as it suits and appeases them. The goal here is to unite the spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical components and thus become as a god rather than blotting them out.

You may ask yourself which path you are on. Well, you are on no path without a goal. Most people these days are on neither despite how many forums they reside on. They may be doing techniques or whatever, but still don't understand why they are messing about. The core of the LHP involves a perfected human -- the spirit, conscious and un-conscious, and his physical body acting in union to become a godlike creature. Anything else, and again... you are simply messing about... Which is fine... if that is what you need to do. =)

 

[crossfire]

I have begun to study with a Luciferian group so I can understand western thinking better.

I agree with Mindmaster that LHP and RHP are co-existing, rather than strictly opposing. Your own right hand and left hand don't necessarily mirror each other when you use them either. There is more of a division of duties between them.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

OK, let me in advance apologize if this is not terribly clear. I'm having a bit of a rough day with the fibromyalgia, so coherence isn't my strong suit. The LHP/RHP dichotomy as I use the terms comes more from the Western Occult Tradition than from Tantra or Hinduism.

LHP and RHP are opposites. One of the most obvious examples is that RHP works within traditionalism, while LHP is iconoclastic. RHP looks to a community-orientation, LHP looks to a self-orientation. Other opposites include cooperation-competition, creation-destruction, even the overly simplified light-dark axis.

RHP/LHP is not, in and of itself, an axis of opposites. Rather, it is a method of categorization, and as such is a reification of reality--but it must be remembered that the map is not the territory.

For my own view, emphasis solely on LHP or on RHP is out of balance. Yes, it's all well and good to revere life, but life without death would rapidly become very unhealthy.

Sorry ... as I said, it's not very coherent. Probably time for me to head to bed.

The nutshell is a good size and shape, but still a nutshell. Still, for a guy that self identifies as a 'wiccan', you seem to have a better grasp on this **** than most.

As others have mentioned, there is a synchronicity between what is described as 'left path' and 'right path', for they are merely descriptors of existent phenomenon. The right promotes duality, dividing the world into goods and evils, rights and wrongs, all externally supported and self-verified. Hell, we all know people that don't identify as religious, or claim some strain of LHP, that will still claim to 'innately' know 'right from wrong'.

The left path seeks to eliminate the duality by confronting both the 'goods' and the 'evils' on individual terms, though real world deeds and experience. In this sense, esoterically, it is a matter of 'destroying' the barriers and axioms that keep duality afloat, one by one, though heightened psychological 'trauma'(read:any change in the psyche that is so extreme as to cause significant change to pre-existing psychological programming you have become attached to, or absorbed into your identity)

On a large scale, LHP stuff is that which exists outside of the stasis of accepted morality/behaviour/duality and causes it to continue to evolve. If the RHP is the horse, the LHP is the whip that keeps it moving.

 

[1137]

If you're destroying dualistic axioms, aren't you destroying logic? And if you're destroying logic, aren't you destroying all coherence and meaning? And if you're destroying all coherence and meaning, what's your point?

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

No to the first question, which makes the rest moot. How exactly did you make that leap?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I think some serious mistakes can be made viewing the RHP and LHP as two opposing things. They aren't in opposition, but merely co-existing. Viewing them in such a fashion will cause one to not see the forest for the trees. I would more accurately say that you can get to the same destination either way -- both ultimately seek truth. It would be better to view them in that way that say Jungian or Freudian psychology are different, but both viable approaches to the subject.

If you get down into the dirty details you will find that both are using a lot of same methods, but maybe to different ends. The key difference lies solely in the personality of the aspirant -- the RHP traveler views humanity as inferior or imperfect and thus orients their practice to nullifying or muting these interfering traits to achieve spiritual perfection. Things are only good or bad to this person based on whether they encourage deviation from that goal. Thus they may view drugs, drinking, and other excessive behaviors in a poor light because they excite the personality and keep them from the ultimate destination. The primary idea being if one managed to blot out the human completely one could likely directly experience the divine truth.

The LHP traveler views their humanity as a tool given to them to perfect which will enable them to experience the ultimate truth if honed well. Instead of that personality, consciousness, and unconsciousness being seen merely as a distraction it is seen as something that needs to be unified into a well-oiled machine. Thus, our LHP person may get drunk for merely the sake of fulfilling understanding why they need to feel that way at the moment. They may place an offering on a pyre, or do ritual magick as our RHP (wo)man may do as it suits and appeases them. The goal here is to unite the spiritual, mental, emotional, and physical components and thus become as a god rather than blotting them out.

You may ask yourself which path you are on. Well, you are on no path without a goal. Most people these days are on neither despite how many forums they reside on. They may be doing techniques or whatever, but still don't understand why they are messing about. The core of the LHP involves a perfected human -- the spirit, conscious and un-conscious, and his physical body acting in union to become a godlike creature. Anything else, and again... you are simply messing about... Which is fine... if that is what you need to do. =)

Though not opposites, they would certainly contradict each other.

 

[1137]

No to the first question, which makes the rest moot. How exactly did you make that leap?

From you saying it.

The left path seeks to eliminate the duality by confronting both the 'goods' and the 'evils' on individual terms, though real world deeds and experience. In this sense, esoterically, it is a matter of 'destroying' the barriers and axioms that keep duality afloat, one by one

 

[Iti oj]

I disagree with you assessment friend technomage. To me the lhp especially luciferian and setian philosophies, are about creation. I also disagree that the RHP is about creation to me it seems more about degradation and stagnation.