My views about Islam and why it is so difficult to attain constructive dialogue about them

[skl]

I wish this were true. What then is driving the terrorists when they yell "Allah is great" when they slaughter another innocent person or detonate another explosive device.

 

[leibowde84]

Muhammad did not do anything of that sort. Did he? Please provide evidence to support your views.
Regards

Oh, I'm not saying that Muhammad did any of these things specifically. I am saying that, necessarily, if only one religion is adhered to, these things will happen as a result. If everyone believes the same thing, then no one will be left to question those beliefs.

 

[zahra67]

Fourth step - Common allegations and misconceptions and what should be understood about them

Is Moderate Islam possible or desirable? What about True Islam?

A major challenge when speaking with Muslims is dealing with the expectations of classifying believers in categories of moderates and extremists, when most Muslims don't really seem to think on those terms. The closest approximation seems to be their tendency to think about True Islam and "false" Muslims.

Basically, most people with extensive acquaintance with Christianity expect some people to be "extreme" Christians that will put some interpretation of Christian beliefs above common sense and basic decency. Even most Christians acknowledge that this happens and often criticize them for what they perceive as a mistake.

Such an attitude does not seem to be very common in Muslim communities, however. The apparent trend seems to be to understand that the Quran and Islam are literally perfect and conductive to perfection, and it does not make logical sense to be "too extreme to their own good" when it comes to adherence to either.

Instead, it is usual to acknowledge that some Muslims (or at least people who seem to sincerely believe themselves Muslims) are, quite simply, not true Muslims despite their own claims.

The reasons why self-claimed Muslims would not be true Muslims probably vary considerably, but a popular belief seems to be that political ambition takes hold of some to the point where they will neglect Islamic teachings, consciously or otherwise. There are also those who believe that certain groups neglect the Quran's teachings in order to favor Hadiths instead. As discussed elsewhere, such a claim is problematic because it is not possible for a Muslim in good faith to ever do such a thing, so this is in practice an attack on people's honor.

about god favors and misuse from some people that want to violate the right of others and even kill other people that you ask:

i should say that i explane my mean with one example.
suppose that my father give money and say to me that take the money and spend it only for good work. like: buying books going to the university, spending money for charitible work, helping the poor people etc.
my father give money and say that only spend it in these ways.
if i use my wealth in true way that my father considered for me, i am grateful, become my father satisfied from myself.
but if i spend my father's money in unlawful acts no one can blame my father and say that what did you give your money to your child.
because my father's goal was my perfection and beeing a useful and generous person for the society.
about god, i should say that god created all universe and created mankind as the best off his creatures.
also made everything in the world forthere sake and there perfection.
if we use our devine wealth in proper way, worshiping god and serving people with faith, we can attain eternal salvation and the infinite devine mercy and paradise.
but if we commit evil acts its our scine and not for god.
god is sublime and we should glorify him, because its the source of all goodness.
in the holy quran, chapter 7, verses 28 and 29 we read:

And when they commit an indecency they say: We found our fathers doing this, and Allah has enjoined it on us. Say: Surely Allah does not enjoin indecency; do you say against Allah what you do not know?
Say: My Lord has enjoined justice, and set upright your faces at every time of prayer and call on Him, being sincere to Him in obedience; as He brought you forth in the beginning, so shall you also return.
and also we read in chapter 16, verses 89 and 90 in the holy quran:

and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.
Surely Allah enjoins the doing of justice and the doing of good [to others] and the giving to the kindred, and He forbids indecency and evil and rebellion; He admonishes you that you may be mindful.
all verses of holy quran are devine mercy and guidance, and there are only two versesfor example which i sent for you to answer your questions.
do remember that only prophet mohammad blessings of god upon him and his progeny and also all the prophets before him, are innocent and infallible. and the holy quran confirms it.
all people who are not infallable, should try to follow them and walk in there way to attain proximity to god and salvation and devine mercy in these world and hearafter.
thanks for spending your time to read and i wish that i could answer your questions.
thanks and god bless you.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

For a while now I have noticed a recurrence of often intense yet barely useful exchanges involving disbelievers in Islam and Muslims of various personal stances.

In the interest of building an useful result from those exchanges, this thread intents to give some clear form to what I find out from those exchanges. Hopefully it will grow and become more informative as time goes by.

Having been on both sides of this issue I can say that the biggest problem I've encountered is overly simplistic views combined with emotional bias. I've often encountered Muslims who approach the whole conversation with nothing but emotion and self assuredness.

It's almost impossible to have a discussion with some Muslims because they often revert to the act of squealing " You are wrong and my view is right!" without giving any real reason you should believe them. Give them a verse from the Quran " Oh you just don't understand because you don't speak Arabic. " If you do speak Arabic " Well your beliefs are just nonsense and god has already condemned you to hell." It's the sheer matter of fact way many of them speak that makes communicating with them neigh unto impossible.

The same can be said of many Christians I've spoken to as well as many non-believers. Any stance more complex than simply for or against seems to be lost on large numbers of people.
I've also seen large numbers of non believers attack Islam with half truths that they will insist upon. Muslims don't believe in Jesus is one I've encountered on several occasions.

If people could step back and not be so emotionally involved it would make things a whole heck of a lot easier.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

about god favors and misuse from some people that want to violate the right of others and even kill other people that you ask:

i should say that i explane my mean with one example.
suppose that my father give money and say to me that take the money and spend it only for good work. like: buying books going to the university, spending money for charitible work, helping the poor people etc.
my father give money and say that only spend it in these ways.
if i use my wealth in true way that my father considered for me, i am grateful, become my father satisfied from myself.
but if i spend my father's money in unlawful acts no one can blame my father and say that what did you give your money to your child.
because my father's goal was my perfection and beeing a useful and generous person for the society.
about god, i should say that god created all universe and created mankind as the best off his creatures.
also made everything in the world forthere sake and there perfection.
if we use our devine wealth in proper way, worshiping god and serving people with faith, we can attain eternal salvation and the infinite devine mercy and paradise.
but if we commit evil acts its our scine and not for god.
god is sublime and we should glorify him, because its the source of all goodness.
in the holy quran, chapter 7, verses 28 and 29 we read:

And when they commit an indecency they say: We found our fathers doing this, and Allah has enjoined it on us. Say: Surely Allah does not enjoin indecency; do you say against Allah what you do not know?
Say: My Lord has enjoined justice, and set upright your faces at every time of prayer and call on Him, being sincere to Him in obedience; as He brought you forth in the beginning, so shall you also return.
and also we read in chapter 16, verses 89 and 90 in the holy quran:

and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.
Surely Allah enjoins the doing of justice and the doing of good [to others] and the giving to the kindred, and He forbids indecency and evil and rebellion; He admonishes you that you may be mindful.
all verses of holy quran are devine mercy and guidance, and there are only two versesfor example which i sent for you to answer your questions.
do remember that only prophet mohammad blessings of god upon him and his progeny and also all the prophets before him, are innocent and infallible. and the holy quran confirms it.
all people who are not infallable, should try to follow them and walk in there way to attain proximity to god and salvation and devine mercy in these world and hearafter.
thanks for spending your time to read and i wish that i could answer your questions.
thanks and god bless you.

I'd argue the Quran doesn't explain everything clearly otherwise why even bother with Hadith? That and there are numerous issues the Quran simply doesn't cover including but not limited to...

Transgenderism
Zoroastrianism
What causes disease
When should a girl be married
Terrorism
The invention of things like Ba'hai
it's own inconsistency
Racism
what the proofs of god actually are
cruelty to animals
medicine
ect.

 

[Jumi]

It's almost impossible to have a discussion with some Muslims because they often revert to the act of squealing " You are wrong and my view is right!" without giving any real reason you should believe them. Give them a verse from the Quran " Oh you just don't understand because you don't speak Arabic. " them neigh unto impossible.

I had long been planning to read the Quran. I asked some questions about it and was told that I don't understand because I don't speak Arabic. I'm not going to learn a new language to read a book that's so difficult to understand that you need to learn an untranslateably difficult language and it's nuances to read a book. It's an efficient way to kill any interest.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

I had long been planning to read the Quran. I asked some questions about it and was told that I don't understand because I don't speak Arabic. I'm not going to learn a new language to read a book that's so difficult to understand that you need to learn an untranslateably difficult language and it's nuances to read a book. It's an efficient way to kill any interest.

It kinda takes the supposed universal message they say the Quran has and throws it in the garbage.

 

[Jumi]

At the very least, it's a self-defeating argument that discourages looking into the book.

 

[Sakeenah]

I had long been planning to read the Quran. I asked some questions about it and was told that I don't understand because I don't speak Arabic. I'm not going to learn a new language to read a book that's so difficult to understand that you need to learn an untranslateably difficult language and it's nuances to read a book. It's an efficient way to kill any interest.

Before I learned Arabic, I read the english translation and when I didn't understand a verse I would look up the exegesis this is also translated in english. You don't have to learn Arabic to understand the message of the Quran.The majority of muslims are non Arabs and the Quran is universal, so to say one needs to know Arabic to understand a verse is imo incorrect.

 

[Lunarious]

Dogs that bark alot don't bite. They are also kind. Intellect makes you prone to selfishness and evil. You clearly are different from those muslims with futile exchanges. Why do you compare yourself to them? Or Atheists? Buddhism is not in conflict with monotheism. I will break you since you want to break Islam which means peace.

 

[Akivah]

I will break you since you want to break Islam which means peace.

Is wanting to break someone an example of Islam's peace?

 

[LuisDantas]

@Lunarious

I am no monotheist, nor do I have any desire to be one. It is just not my way. I am very much an atheist, as well as an apatheist and ignostic.

As for Islaam, it just keeps disappointing me. It would be wrong to keep silent about it.

 

[Lunarious]

Is wanting to break someone an example of Islam's peace?

We don't backbite. If you want to make peace, talk to your enemies, not friends - Moshe Dayan

Muslims don't bite AFAIK. I do however. Only in self-defence.

 

[Lunarious]

@Lunarious

I am no monotheist, nor do I have any desire to be one. It is just not my way. I am very much an atheist, as well as an apatheist and ignostic.

As for Islaam, it just keeps disappointing me. It would be wrong to keep silent about it.

Thats because you have troubles and point at the weakest link in the Chain (also Buddhism) to say: Their the problem, not me! Funnily i've subscribed to both because i love them.

 

[Lunarious]

Be as you like but stay away from us.

109. The Disbelievers, Atheists - IslamiCity

 

[LuisDantas]

Thats because you have troubles and point at the weakest link in the Chain (also Buddhism) to say: Their the problem, not me! Funnily i've subscribed to both because i love them.

I have troubles with Islaam, which turns out to be not only a false religion, but not a religion at all.

How is that my fault?

 

[LuisDantas]

Be as you like but stay away from us.

109. The Disbelievers, Atheists - IslamiCity

I am plenty willing. Unfortunately, we live in the same world and have to deal with it.

 

[leibowde84]

We don't backbite. If you want to make peace, talk to your enemies, not friends - Moshe Dayan

Muslims don't bite AFAIK. I do however. Only in self-defence.

Didn't you just say that you were going to "break" him because he was trying to break Islam? That isn't self-defense.

 

[Sha'irullah]

A murtadun like me is just itching for some nice fresh Muslim breaking I love the whole sound of it to! Sounds kinky like how I broke in my fiance to submit to will so she can serve my sexual desires alone ! I am a cruel master that even the Shaytan fears my waswas!

The narun in my qaliba cannot never be quenched until it faces battle!!!! Oh this talk of breaking is making my loins ache in anticipation! KIMOCHI!!

!!!أنا مستعد!!!

 

[Augustus]

I will break you