My views about Islam and why it is so difficult to attain constructive dialogue about them

[Tumah]

I made no such claims sir.
I stated "Later they migrated from Medina and might have joined/merged with other denominations and changed or reformed their concepts." Please see my post #80 in the thread.
Please revise your argument/s, therefore.
Regards

P.S
Would one please enlighten us as to when and why the first Jewish migration from north to Yathrib occurred from the Jewish sources of that time?

The only thing that needs to be changed is that perhaps the Jews were not fleeing from Christians to Medina. Depending on when they arrived.
As for the rest, nothing changes.
Whether they migrated after Medina and reverted back to mainstream Jewish belief or not, what the did when they migrated to Medina according to your claim is as above.

 

[Kirran]

Paarsurrey, for Jews to be in Medina, they must have migrated to Medina. Seeing as Jews are not from Medina.

 

[Shad]

I made no such claims sir.
I stated "Later they migrated from Medina and might have joined/merged with other denominations and changed or reformed their concepts." Please see my post #80 in the thread.
Please revise your argument/s, therefore.
Regards

P.S
Would one please enlighten us as to when and why the first Jewish migration from north to Yathrib occurred from the Jewish sources of that time?

By putting forward "might have" you are providing speculation only.

 

[paarsurrey]

Because I'm interested in exploring Islam as a spiritual path, I've been reading a lot of historical perspectives on Muhammad. From what I've gathered, he was not an instigator of war and violence, but was a man who many sought to kill. He was trying to build a Muslim community and in that building, the laws that were designed were supposed to be to keep order, as part and parcel of Islam. Did Muhammad wish for these laws to continue on? My personal opinion is no, that they were designed during a volatile time. That isn't me trying to soften it up, but many of the laws that are still followed, were laws seen in the OT. Muhammad wasn't a wager of war, I've read, but rather a defender of Islam. I don't agree with Sharia law but I've read from objective sources (not Islam apologists) as to at least the reason why it came into existence.

I was thinking of how ironic it is that the US is a rather violent country both historically and now, but we somehow see ourselves as more civilized than the rest of the world. And the US is in some regards but it shows that people will find all kinds of reasons to justify violence. A man who hits his wife may tell her "you shouldn't make me so mad!" Which is why we would be wiser to view ISIS for example, as a detriment to Islam, not a defender of it. They are not interested in promoting Islam, they are interested in their own agenda, using Islam as a scapegoat. Groups like this have popped up throughout history, and not only from the Muslim 'community.'

Like all religions, their histories can be murky because we are often times piecing together stories that may or may not be entirely accurate. (even from a historical perspective)

So, as to the OP, I think that it isn't solely the Muslim community who needs to speak out about Islam, it is also non-muslims' responsibility to acquire some objective knowledge about it on their own. And then one can make up his/her mind.

Islam is a message of hope as I see it, and the prophets are human beings, fallible and imperfect. But that doesn't mean the message is tainted. To me, that is how I see Islam in a modern world...as a religion that is often misunderstood because of its historical struggles and because Muhammad wasn't a pacifist.

All good points mentioned in the post and coloured by me in magenta. Thanks and regards

 

[leibowde84]

Because I'm interested in exploring Islam as a spiritual path, I've been reading a lot of historical perspectives on Muhamnad. From what I've gathered, he was not an instigator of war and violence, but was a man who many sought to kill. He was trying to build a Muslim community and in that building, the laws that were designed were supposed to be to keep order, as part and parcel of Islam. Did Muhammad wish for these laws to continue on? My personal opinion is no, that they were designed during a volatile time. That isn't me trying to soften it up, but many of the laws that are still followed, were laws seen in the OT. Muhammad wasn't a wager of war, I've read, but rather a defender of Islam. I don't agree with Sharia law but I've read from objective sources (not Islam apologists) as to at least the reason why it came into existence.

I was thinking of how ironic it is that the US is a rather violent country both historically and now, but we somehow see ourselves as more civilized than the rest of the world. And the US is in some regards but it shows that people will find all kinds of reasons to justify violence. A man who hits his wife may tell her "you shouldn't make me so mad!" Which is why we would be wiser to view ISIS for example, as a detriment to Islam, not a defender of it. They are not interested in promoting Islam, they are interested in their own agenda, using Islam as a scapegoat. Groups like this have popped up throughout history, and not only from the Muslim 'community.'

Like all religions, their histories can be murky because we are often times piecing together stories that may or may not be entirely accurate. (even from a historical perspective)

So, as to the OP, I think that it isn't solely the Muslim community who needs to speak out about Islam, it is also non-muslims' responsibility to acquire some objective knowledge about it on their own. And then one can make up his/her mind.

Islam is a message of hope as I see it, and the prophets are human beings, fallible and imperfect. But that doesn't mean the message is tainted. To me, that is how I see Islam in a modern world...as a religion that is often misunderstood because of its historical struggles and because Muhammad wasn't a pacifist.

I think this is a bit of a stretch. For starters, Muhammad wanted to unite the world under one specific religion, which would provide government, law, enforcement of law, spirituality, etc. Not only is this an extremely unrealistic endeavor, but, imho, it is extremely detrimental to free-thought and progress.

 

[paarsurrey]

I think this is a bit of a stretch. For starters, Muhammad wanted to unite the world under one specific religion, which would provide government, law, enforcement of law, spirituality, etc. Not only is this an extremely unrealistic endeavor, but, imho, it is extremely detrimental to free-thought and progress.

How? Please

 

[leibowde84]

How? Please

Just for starters ... You can't express ideas that show possible issues with Muhammad and Islam. If Islam ends up being wrong, then no one will ever be able to figure that out. People wouldn't be able to promote ideas that go against Islam. Laws would be based on subjective beliefs about the will of God. Belief could be seen as a legal requirement. Leaders would claim authority from God which cannot be disproved, logically.

 

[paarsurrey]

Just for starters ... You can't express ideas that show possible issues with Muhammad and Islam. If Islam ends up being wrong, then no one will ever be able to figure that out. People wouldn't be able to promote ideas that go against Islam. Laws would be based on subjective beliefs about the will of God. Belief could be seen as a legal requirement. Leaders would claim authority from God which cannot be disproved, logically.

Muhammad did not do anything of that sort. Did he? Please provide evidence to support your views.
Regards

 

[leibowde84]

Muhammad did not do anything of that sort. Did he? Please provide evidence to support your views.
Regards

Islam makes apostasy punishable by death when in governmental control.

 

[paarsurrey]

Islam makes apostasy punishable by death when in governmental control.

It is just wrong, it is not mentioned in Quran.
Please quote from Quran, the first and the foremost source of Islam/Muhammad whatever the denomination, that apostasy is punishable by death?
Regards

 

[savagewind]

1. According to critics, punishment forapostasy in Islam is a violation of universal human rights, and an issue of freedom of faith and conscience. However moderate Muslims do not accept the death penalty for apostasy since it is inconsistent with the Qur'an.

I googled is islamic apostasy punishable by death

 

[Flankerl]

People you realise that he is Ahmadiyya right?
If you present him Sunni or even Shia sources he will just deny them.

 

[leibowde84]

It is just wrong, it is not mentioned in Quran.
Please quote from Quran, the first and the foremost source of Islam/Muhammad whatever the denomination, that apostasy is punishable by death?
Regards

God Most High declares in the Qur'an:

But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief -- Lo! they have no binding oaths in order that they may desist. (9:11,12)[1]

The following is the occasion for the revelation of this verse: During the pilgrimage (hajj) in A.H. 9 God Most High ordered a proclamation of an immunity. By virtue of this proclamation all those who, up to that time, were fighting against God and His Apostle and were attempting to obstruct the way of God's religion through all kinds of excesses and false covenants, were granted from that time a maximum respite of four months. During this period they were to ponder their own situation. If they wanted to accept Islam, they could accept it and they would be forgiven. If they wanted to leave the country, they could leave. Within this fixed period nothing would hinder them from leaving. Thereafter those remaining, who would neither accept Islam nor leave the country, would be dealt with by the sword. In this connection it was said: "If they repent and uphold the practice of prayer and almsgiving, then they are your brothers in religion. If after this, however, they break their covenant, then war should be waged against the leaders of kufr (infidelity). Here "covenant breaking" in no way can be construed to mean "breaking of political covenants". Rather, the context clearly determines its meaning to be "confessing Islam and then renouncing it". Thereafter the meaning of "fight the heads of disbelief" (9:11,12) can only mean that war should be waged against the leaders instigating apostasy.[2][7]

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm#_Toc157226270

 

[paarsurrey]

God Most High declares in the Qur'an:

But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief -- Lo! they have no binding oaths in order that they may desist. (9:11,12)

I give below the verse of Quran(9:11,12) with the verses in the context:

[9:6]And if anyone of the idolaters ask protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who have no knowledge.
[9:7]How can there be a treaty of these idolaters with Allah and His Messenger, except those with whom you entered into a treaty at the Sacred Mosque? So, as long as they stand true to you, stand true to them. Surely, Allah loves those who are righteous.
[9:8]How can it be when, if they prevail against you, they would not observe any tie of relationship or covenant in respect of you? They would please you with their mouths, while their hearts refuse, and most of them are perfidious.
[9:9]They barter the Signs of Allah for a paltry price and turn men away from His way. Evil indeed is that which they do.
[9:10]They observe not any tie of relationship or covenant in respect of anyone who trusts them. And it is they who are transgressors.
[9:11]But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then they are your brethren in faith. And We explain the Signs for a people who have knowledge.
[9:12]And if they break their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion, then fight these leaders of disbelief — surely, they have no regard for their oaths — that they may desist.
[9:13]Will you not fight a people who have broken their oaths, and who plotted to turn out the Messenger, and they were the first to commence hostilities against you? Do you fear them? Nay, Allah is most worthy that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=9&verse=11

The context of the verse is clearly against what you have understood.
Regards

 

[leibowde84]

I give below the verse of Quran(9:11,12) with the verses in the context:

[9:6]And if anyone of the idolaters ask protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who have no knowledge.
[9:7]How can there be a treaty of these idolaters with Allah and His Messenger, except those with whom you entered into a treaty at the Sacred Mosque? So, as long as they stand true to you, stand true to them. Surely, Allah loves those who are righteous.
[9:8]How can it be when, if they prevail against you, they would not observe any tie of relationship or covenant in respect of you? They would please you with their mouths, while their hearts refuse, and most of them are perfidious.
[9:9]They barter the Signs of Allah for a paltry price and turn men away from His way. Evil indeed is that which they do.
[9:10]They observe not any tie of relationship or covenant in respect of anyone who trusts them. And it is they who are transgressors.
[9:11]But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then they are your brethren in faith. And We explain the Signs for a people who have knowledge.
[9:12]And if they break their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion, then fight these leaders of disbelief — surely, they have no regard for their oaths — that they may desist.
[9:13]Will you not fight a people who have broken their oaths, and who plotted to turn out the Messenger, and they were the first to commence hostilities against you? Do you fear them? Nay, Allah is most worthy that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=9&verse=11

The context of the verse clearly against what you have understood.
Regards

No. It supports my argument. If you are a Muslim who, one day, decides to go against Islam and voice your issues with it, pleading to convince others, you are an apostate deserving of violent punishment.

 

[paarsurrey]

People you realise that he is Ahmadiyya right?
If you present him Sunni or even Shia sources he will just deny them.

You may read post #154 above and see the context verses 9:6-13 confirm that these verses are specific for the Meccans, of the time of Muhammad, who had declared war against Muhammad and his followers.
It has got nothing to do with apostasy. Right?
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Please read the following verses from the Quran:

[5:55]O ye who believe! whoso among you turns back from his religion, then let it be known that in his stead Allah will soon bring a people whom He will love and who will love Him,and who will be kind and humble towards believers, hard and firm against disbelievers. They will strive in the cause of Allah and will not fear the reproach of a faultfinder. That is Allah’s grace; He bestows it upon whomsoever He pleases; and Allah is Bountiful, All- Knowing.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse:&ch=5&verse=55

No punishment for apostasy has been mentioned, one could see.
Regards

 

[skl]

Please read the following verses from the Quran:

[5:55]O ye who believe! whoso among you turns back from his religion, then let it be known that in his stead Allah will soon bring a people whom He will love and who will love Him,and who will be kind and humble towards believers, hard and firm against disbelievers. They will strive in the cause of Allah and will not fear the reproach of a faultfinder. That is Allah’s grace; He bestows it upon whomsoever He pleases; and Allah is Bountiful, All- Knowing.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse:&ch=5&verse=55

No punishment for apostasy has been mentioned, one could see.
Regards

Obviously in this argument it is an interpretation of the Quran text problem that divides Islamic Muslim believers.

In my opinion if these Muslim people and their Christian counterparts must put so much faith in texts that were written in an undeveloped ancient language by people who had a limited education and wrote the texts decades after the events happened and who based their lives on superstitions regarding the natural events of the world, you would never expect an accurate document for a start.

These texts have also been interpreted into a hundred languages and obviously would have been manipulated intentionally or unintentionally through interpretations from other writers over centuries so these interpretation arguments will never hold water or be resolved.

In the case of the Quran it currently appears to be the ones with the most fire-power who are deemed as the ones who have the correct interpretation.

 

[leibowde84]

Please read the following verses from the Quran:

[5:55]O ye who believe! whoso among you turns back from his religion, then let it be known that in his stead Allah will soon bring a people whom He will love and who will love Him,and who will be kind and humble towards believers, hard and firm against disbelievers. They will strive in the cause of Allah and will not fear the reproach of a faultfinder. That is Allah’s grace; He bestows it upon whomsoever He pleases; and Allah is Bountiful, All- Knowing.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse:&ch=5&verse=55

No punishment for apostasy has been mentioned, one could see.
Regards

What do you think "hard and firm against disbelievers" means. Seems to obviously refer to punishment of some kind.

 

[DawudTalut]

What do you think "hard and firm against disbelievers" means. Seems to obviously refer to punishment of some kind.

Peace be on you.
Your question is solved here in note 685

Ref:https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=633&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2