My New take down of Determinism.

[bobhikes]

@Skwim This is for everybody but I would really like to hear from Skwim.

I am back to writing and this is a section of the book so no stealing please. Also corrections or errors noticed are welcome its my first draft.

Third Big Question

Is everything determined?

Answer

No. Everything is random.

This question has been a thorn in my side for a long time and I know a lot of you are going to disagree. A lot of the reason we believe things to be determined is built off of the human condition. My next category will be about the human condition but here I will build the case without referencing humans.

When I first was majorly challenged on this I was given an either/or statement. Everything had to be determined or everything had to be random you couldn’t have both. I tried to fight this statement for years but never could so I had to come to the understanding that everything was random.

I understand you are saying that’s not true, the sun shines every day, people can’t fly without machines and the earth revolves around the sun. The resolution is twofold everything has infinite potential and everything infinitely changes. With potential and change being infinite anything and everything is possible. So why does the earth continually revolve around the sun? It is because of probabilities. Certain potentials are rarer than others or have a lower probability of happening, but they can and do happen.

Two examples of what I mean. The US Nickel has a fairly thick and smooth side you can stand it up on its side if you practice. If you flipped it and let it hit the floor you would expect heads or tails to show up but if the floor was just smooth enough and the nickel hit the floor and spun just right it would end up stopping on its side. Out of a 100,000 flips only one would end that way but the probability is still there. My second example comes from watching YouTube where a person will throw a knife 10 feet away behind the back at a knife holder and the knife will perfectly go in. When they explain it they took 10,000 throws and filmed them all only showing you the effective one. Even though they practiced 10,000 times if you got a dollar every time they missed and they got 100 dollars every time they made it out of the next 10,000 tries, who do you think would make more money? That is probability based on infinite potential and change.

Do you realize that no scientific law is 100% accurate, all of them have exceptions or limitations. Even with the law’s that are limited it is nearly impossible to repeat the results or collect 100% accurate data. I’m going to use Jurassic park definition of chaos theory. I’m not sure it is scientific but it illustrates the point. If you take a drop of water in a contained environment and dropped it on a sphere, it would roll of in a certain direction. When you repeat the experiment you could never be accurate enough to have the drop follow the same pattern across the sphere as it rolled off.

What has happened is change, the planet is no longer in the same position, the water droplet though the same size shape is made up of different atoms, the sphere has changed due to the last droplet, you could never remake the sphere exactly again and etc. However due to probability if you did it enough times the path would be repeated but never to the point of scientific consistency.

 

[PureX]

Existence couldn't occur in an environment that was absolutely random (chaos). Nothing could occur in such an environment but chaos. For something to occur in a chaotic (random) environment, there has to be some degree of limitation within the randomness to provide the ability for something to occur, and to STICK long enough for something else to occur to it, and for that to stick long enough ... you get the picture.

Existence is neither absolutely random, nor absolutely ordered (determined). It is the expression of an interaction between randomness (chaos) and order (limitation). What can happen, does happen (chance). What cannot happen, does not happen (limitation). In this way existence is partially happenstance, and partially determined. Existence is an expression of the relative equilibrium between the two conditions.

 

[shunyadragon]

@Skwim This is for everybody but I would really like to hear from Skwim.

I am back to writing and this is a section of the book so no stealing please. Also corrections or errors noticed are welcome its my first draft.

Third Big Question

Is everything determined?

Answer

No. Everything is random.

This question has been a thorn in my side for a long time and I know a lot of you are going to disagree. A lot of the reason we believe things to be determined is built off of the human condition. My next category will be about the human condition but here I will build the case without referencing humans.

When I first was majorly challenged on this I was given an either/or statement. Everything had to be determined or everything had to be random you couldn’t have both. I tried to fight this statement for years but never could so I had to come to the understanding that everything was random.

I understand you are saying that’s not true, the sun shines every day, people can’t fly without machines and the earth revolves around the sun. The resolution is twofold everything has infinite potential and everything infinitely changes. With potential and change being infinite anything and everything is possible. So why does the earth continually revolve around the sun? It is because of probabilities. Certain potentials are rarer than others or have a lower probability of happening, but they can and do happen.

Two examples of what I mean. The US Nickel has a fairly thick and smooth side you can stand it up on its side if you practice. If you flipped it and let it hit the floor you would expect heads or tails to show up but if the floor was just smooth enough and the nickel hit the floor and spun just right it would end up stopping on its side. Out of a 100,000 flips only one would end that way but the probability is still there. My second example comes from watching YouTube where a person will throw a knife 10 feet away behind the back at a knife holder and the knife will perfectly go in. When they explain it they took 10,000 throws and filmed them all only showing you the effective one. Even though they practiced 10,000 times if you got a dollar every time they missed and they got 100 dollars every time they made it out of the next 10,000 tries, who do you think would make more money? That is probability based on infinite potential and change.

Do you realize that no scientific law is 100% accurate, all of them have exceptions or limitations. Even with the law’s that are limited it is nearly impossible to repeat the results or collect 100% accurate data. I’m going to use Jurassic park definition of chaos theory. I’m not sure it is scientific but it illustrates the point. If you take a drop of water in a contained environment and dropped it on a sphere, it would roll of in a certain direction. When you repeat the experiment you could never be accurate enough to have the drop follow the same pattern across the sphere as it rolled off.

What has happened is change, the planet is no longer in the same position, the water droplet though the same size shape is made up of different atoms, the sphere has changed due to the last droplet, you could never remake the sphere exactly again and etc. However due to probability if you did it enough times the path would be repeated but never to the point of scientific consistency.

Yes, I disagree, because it is far too simplistic, and lacking basic knowledge of science and math and what constitutes determinism.

First, pretty much all the variability in the outcome of cause and effect events are not random, because the outcomes are fractal based on chaos theory within the deterministic limits of Natural Laws. Randomness is presently used in today's research in the theory of probability to explain unknown error in experiments, and other unknowns from the human perspective. Flips of a coin follow a fractal pattern withing the limits of the variables of flipping the coin, which are limited by the determinism of natural law. All those things considered random, such as the unknowns of variability in research. are not considered outside the limits of determinism of the Laws of Nature.

For you to support the assertion that 'everything is random' you would have to demonstrate where everything is not subject to natural law.

Do you realize that no scientific law is 100% accurate, all of them have exceptions or limitations.

Very very flawed logic. The scientific laws of nature are accurate in the macro world where the were empericaly determined to apply. I question what you are referring to as 100%. Can you demonstrate a violation of the Law of Gravity or the Las of Thermodynamics.

 

[bobhikes]

Yes, I disagree, because it is far too simplistic, and lacking basic knowledge of science and math and what constitutes determinism.

First, pretty much all the variability in the outcome of cause and effect events are not random, because the outcomes are fractal based on chaos theory within the deterministic limits of Natural Laws. Randomness is presently used in today's research in the theory of probability to explain unknown error in experiments, another unknowns from the human perspective. Flips of a coin follow a fractal pattern withing the limits of the variables of flipping the coin, which are limited by the determinism of natural law.

For you to support the assertion that 'everything is random' you would have to demonstrate where everything is not subject to natural law.



Very very flawed logic. The scientific laws of nature are accurate in the macro world where the were empericaly determined to apply. I question what you are referring to as 100%. Can you demonstrate a violation of the lLAw of Gravity or the Las of Thermodynamics.

Yes the book is not going to be written for the scientist but the average person as to the build up I start with an introduction that includes not getting to deep into the science, I then disprove Math as fact. I then disprove that the universe could not come from nothing and introduce potential. I then use potential to prove that the condition of God is indeterminable. I then step into determinism.

I do not have to demonstrate that everything is not subject to natural law only that natural law is infinite in potential and change is effected by probability for determinism to be true potential cannot be infinite and change must be determined.

 

[David T]

"The scientific laws of nature are accurate in the macro world where the were empericaly determined to apply"

Or reworded the "scientific abstractions about nature are accurate in the macro world where the were experiencially determined to apply"

Totally agree with that. Btw it appears i wrote the last part of that phrase shuny! You been reading too much of my mangeleeeze writing..

i am Not certain that " where the were experientially determined to apply" was clear although i think i know what you meant!!!!

 

[David T]

"The scientific laws of nature are accurate in the macro world where the were empericaly determined to apply"

Or reworded the "scientific abstractions about nature are accurate in the macro world where the were experiencially determined to apply"

Totally agree with that. Btw it appears i wrote the last part of that phrase shuny! You been reading too much of my mangeleeeze writing..

i am Not certain that " where the were experientially determined to apply" was clear although i think i know what you meant!!!!

 

[David T]

Yes the book is not going to be written for the scientist but the average person as to the build up I start with an introduction that includes not getting to deep into the science, I then disprove Math as fact. I then disprove that the universe could not come from nothing and introduce potential. I then use potential to prove that the condition of God is indeterminable. I then step into determinism.

I do not have to demonstrate that everything is not subject to natural law only that natural law is infinite in potential and change is effected by probability for determinism to be true potential cannot be infinite and change must be determined.

I then disprove Math as fact.

Its sort of fact. A bit like saying camaflauge isnt fact but fiction, or 3D isnt fact, or a photo isnt fact. Yet 3d exists, math exists, camaflauge exists.

On the other hand saying math itself is not reality like an image in a mirror is not a real person literally only accurate i think fits more closely to what you are alluding to in regards to math. Like photos i can create all kinds of improbable realities in math like this shot of rudolph the flying reindeer. Its highly accurate but its not "real" In any interpretative way. We tend to be cult memebers of accurate!!!!! Raised that way actuallly.

 

[shunyadragon]

I then disprove Math as fact.

Math is not fact whether you disprove it or not. Math is simply a tool of science and everyday life to solve information problems

Its sort of fact. A bit like saying camaflauge isnt fact but fiction, or 3D isnt fact, or a photo isnt fact. Yet 3d exists, math exists, camaflauge exists.

Nothing here related to math.

On the other hand saying math itself is not reality like an image in a mirror is not a real person literally only accurate i think fits more closely to what you are alluding to in regards to math. Like photos i can create all kinds of improbable realities in math like this shot of rudolph the flying reindeer. Its highly accurate but its not "real" In any interpretative way. We tend to be cult memebers of accurate!!!!! Raised that way actuallly.View attachment 24819

You must have been smoking some of those stinky green things before you wrote this.

 

[David T]

Math is not fact whether you disprove it or not. Math is simply a tool of science and everyday life to solve information problems



Nothing here related to math.



You must have been smoking some of those stinky green things before you wrote this.

I cut and pasted that from the original post its not my quote. Infact even if i didnt create little fingers"" i basically said what you said and we agree shuny on something here!!!! Go fuuuuuigere.

 

[Skwim]

@Skwim
Third Big Question

Is everything determined?

As far as can be ascertained, yes. Keep in mind that "determinism is the philosophical theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes,"* and that if an event is not determined it would have to be absolutely and unequivocally random. It could equally not be as be.

Answer

No. Everything is random.

Interesting . . . .

This question has been a thorn in my side for a long time and I know a lot of you are going to disagree. A lot of the reason we believe things to be determined is built off of the human condition.

Okay, although I fail to see the relevance of the "why" of a belief.

When I first was majorly challenged on this I was given an either/or statement. Everything had to be determined or everything had to be random you couldn’t have both. I tried to fight this statement for years but never could so I had to come to the understanding that everything was random.

Why would you decide on random rather than determined? To me, this contradicts just about everything we experience in life. "Because" becomes a useless term.

I understand you are saying that’s not true, the sun shines every day, people can’t fly without machines and the earth revolves around the sun. The resolution is twofold everything has infinite potential and everything infinitely changes.

What is "infinite potential" and why does everything necessarily have it?

With potential and change being infinite anything and everything is possible.

In what way is change infinite?

So why does the earth continually revolve around the sun? It is because of probabilities. Certain potentials are rarer than others or have a lower probability of happening, but they can and do happen.

Honestly, you're beginning to sound like the ramblings of Deepak Chopra.

Do you realize that no scientific law is 100% accurate, all of them have exceptions or limitations.

In general, a scientific law is simply a description of a phenomenon. It doesn't explain the existence of the phenomenon or what causes it. So what do you perceive to be these crucial exceptions or limitations of a description?

Even with the law’s that are limited it is nearly impossible to repeat the results or collect 100% accurate data. I’m going to use Jurassic park definition of chaos theory. I’m not sure it is scientific but it illustrates the point. If you take a drop of water in a contained environment and dropped it on a sphere, it would roll of in a certain direction. When you repeat the experiment you could never be accurate enough to have the drop follow the same pattern across the sphere as it rolled off.

So what law do you see as being compromised here?

What has happened is change, the planet is no longer in the same position, the water droplet though the same size shape is made up of different atoms, the sphere has changed due to the last droplet, you could never remake the sphere exactly again and etc. However due to probability if you did it enough times the path would be repeated but never to the point of scientific consistency.

Which means this change was determined by the new configuration of the relevant conditions.

* source: Wikipedia

.

 

[74x12]

@Skwim This is for everybody but I would really like to hear from Skwim.

I am back to writing and this is a section of the book so no stealing please. Also corrections or errors noticed are welcome its my first draft.

Third Big Question

Is everything determined?

Answer

No. Everything is random.

This question has been a thorn in my side for a long time and I know a lot of you are going to disagree. A lot of the reason we believe things to be determined is built off of the human condition. My next category will be about the human condition but here I will build the case without referencing humans.

When I first was majorly challenged on this I was given an either/or statement. Everything had to be determined or everything had to be random you couldn’t have both. I tried to fight this statement for years but never could so I had to come to the understanding that everything was random.

I understand you are saying that’s not true, the sun shines every day, people can’t fly without machines and the earth revolves around the sun. The resolution is twofold everything has infinite potential and everything infinitely changes. With potential and change being infinite anything and everything is possible. So why does the earth continually revolve around the sun? It is because of probabilities. Certain potentials are rarer than others or have a lower probability of happening, but they can and do happen.

Two examples of what I mean. The US Nickel has a fairly thick and smooth side you can stand it up on its side if you practice. If you flipped it and let it hit the floor you would expect heads or tails to show up but if the floor was just smooth enough and the nickel hit the floor and spun just right it would end up stopping on its side. Out of a 100,000 flips only one would end that way but the probability is still there. My second example comes from watching YouTube where a person will throw a knife 10 feet away behind the back at a knife holder and the knife will perfectly go in. When they explain it they took 10,000 throws and filmed them all only showing you the effective one. Even though they practiced 10,000 times if you got a dollar every time they missed and they got 100 dollars every time they made it out of the next 10,000 tries, who do you think would make more money? That is probability based on infinite potential and change.

Do you realize that no scientific law is 100% accurate, all of them have exceptions or limitations. Even with the law’s that are limited it is nearly impossible to repeat the results or collect 100% accurate data. I’m going to use Jurassic park definition of chaos theory. I’m not sure it is scientific but it illustrates the point. If you take a drop of water in a contained environment and dropped it on a sphere, it would roll of in a certain direction. When you repeat the experiment you could never be accurate enough to have the drop follow the same pattern across the sphere as it rolled off.

What has happened is change, the planet is no longer in the same position, the water droplet though the same size shape is made up of different atoms, the sphere has changed due to the last droplet, you could never remake the sphere exactly again and etc. However due to probability if you did it enough times the path would be repeated but never to the point of scientific consistency.

Interesting perspective. Let me ask if time travel was proven to be possible would that change your opinion?

 

[bobhikes]

As far as can be ascertained, yes. Keep in mind that "determinism is the philosophical theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes,"* and that if an event is not determined it would have to be absolutely and unequivocally random. It could equally not be as be.



What is "infinite potential" and why does everything necessarily have it?


In what way is change infinite?


.

This is the key to my solution. It basically relates as to why the Universe could not be created from nothing. But until I'm finished I don't want to reveal to much. Thanks for the reply though it helps quite a bit. I could always count on your views of determinism. As to Depaak my Dad was a fan I never was.

 

[bobhikes]

Interesting perspective. Let me ask if time travel was proven to be possible would that change your opinion?

If time is a thing then it has potential and its potential is as infinite as everything else. Thanks also I need to correct something in my writing based on this.