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Muslims can't get saved

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Lady Marva, Sep 13, 2004.

  1. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    But if I haven't used salt, would you be able to explain the taste of salt to me well enought that I would know? Of course not! The same is true with testimonies of the truth of your faith. You say that they are not true because you haven't felt/experienced them for yourself. You throw away anybody's testimony because you haven't experienced. Just like in the example of salt, me not being able to explain it, and you never having experienced it, doen't necessarily mean it isn't true.
     
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  2. standing_alone

    standing_alone Well-Known Member

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    But the difference with the salt is that even if you didn't experience it, someone can give you salt, let you feel it, taste it, etc. I can prove that salt exists because I can show that it is there. With an afterlife you believe it is there, it's all done on faith. For salt, I don't need to have faith that it exists, I can prove it is to myself and to you. You can't do that with an afterlife or other religious experience. And who's to say that your experiences constitute that there is an afterlife. Many have claimed to have been abducted by aliens and it felt like a very real expeience for them. It doesn't mean there isn't a natural explanation (in the case of alien abduction, sleep paralysis). You may have experienced something that to you makes you feel that your belief in an afterlife or your religion is true, but it doesn't mean that your experiences mean that it's absolute truth. Also, personal testimonies or accounts are not reliable as a sole source of any experience. Personal testimonies and accounts are all too often unreliable.
     
  3. angellous_evangellous

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    Wow this thread is old. It was started 9/2004 by someone who has not posted since then.
     
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  4. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    It's correct that Jesus said He would not go to be with the Father without leaving us a comforter...but do you have some information you'd like to share...I may not feel as you do but I'd like to hear what you have to say. I feel that this comforter that Jesus spoke of is the Holy Ghost that was there with all of God's people prior to Jesus being born to the Virgin Mary. I feel that the 3 are one and seperate similar to the way we can say Me, Myself and I...there is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost(Spirit)....these for me make up the Godhead of all that God is. God supreme,God sent to die for the sins of the world and the Spirit of everything that is good in God that communicates with human souls; the Holy Spirit(Ghost). Perhpaps we could discuss this in length in a PM or right here where we have the input of all who have an opinion..smiles,
    FTH:162:
     
  5. shema

    shema Active Member

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    the Bible teaches(and the Quran would agree with this) that greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. so it would be safe to say if we have he(jesus) in us than it is greater than being in the world. Thats no matter what your religion, or culture. and the world is a harsh place. there are people in every religion that are there just for the ride. but a true follower of christ should be obvious. Even serial Killier can do a good deed or two. but if that killer , after having done more bad than good. confesses his sin and asks Jesus to change his life for him and through him, than I believe he has the opportunity to go to heaven as much as a person who never hurt a fly, but was unwilling to accept christ as the son of the living God. And further more Jesus said that I have come so that you may have life and have it more aboundantly.
    But my question is that if Allah, is arabic for God in general, than how come since we are speaking english, we just don't say God. And why can't muslims and jews live peacefully on the same land. because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. humans will never righteous enough to stand before God unless, we accept that fact that he came here on earth and walked amongst us to bring us closer to him. I pray a blessing over each and everone of you as God would have me to do.
     
  6. Ibrahim Al-Amin

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    "God" is acceptable.

    Muslims often don't use "God" because "God" is the male form, versus "Goddess," and God doesn't have gender. Additionally, "God" can be plural, as in "gods," but God is only One. "Allah," therefore, is genderless and singular and is a more accurate symbol.

    Also, the English term "God" is linguistically a new word, as modern English did not come about until the late Middle Ages. "Allah" and it's semitic derivative "Elohim" was used thousands of years before "God."
     
  7. Ibrahim Al-Amin

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    So you're conclusion is that because the Muslims and Jews have not accepted Jesus they are doomed to eternal struggle? Kind of like the "No Jesus, no peace, know Jesus, know peace," from the 1970s?

    How do you then explain the lack of peace in Christian lands? Say, between the Brits and Northern Ireland? One group is catholic, the other is protestant, but they both have Jesus. What about everyday crime? Aren't the crime rates in the US the highest of all developed nations? What about World Wars I and II, which were mostly struggles between Christian Western nations?

    Your arguments are juvenile and research undeveloped, and quite entertaining I must add.
     
  8. Flappycat

    Flappycat Well-Known Member

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    If there were a God and a Heaven, only atheists would be allowed into Heaven. Repent your heathenish religions, lest you, completely hypothetically, burn for eternity. You have nothing to lose if you do and everything to lose if you don't, after all. Pascal's Wafer says so. No, I'm trying to make a point. Analyze your reactions to having someone else tell you that you're going to suffer for eternity because of your religious beliefs. Does it make you eager to convert to the other fellow's religion or lack thereof, or does it just annoy you? I honestly would't think that a god that burns people for kicks and giggles or over a bruised ego would be worshipped by anyone who has the least grasp on morality.

    Listen, the European Union has the highest rate of atheism in the world, and it's come closer than any culture in history to gaining nearly unanimous peaceful accord. Atheists, on average, tend to have the second highest incomes and marital success rates in the US, and they're second only to Unitarian Universalists last time I checked. I honestly don't think that there is any evidence to suggest that atheists are held at all in lower regard by any supreme being than the membership of any religion. The fact is that they tend to fare a bit better. As far as riches in the ancient sense, most atheists I've known tend to be relatively austere in their tastes, and Europe does tend to have a much smaller consumer culture than the US unless I'm behind the times.

    If you believe your deity sentences people to hellfire and all that rubbish, why aren't you trying to find ways to kill the pervert? Seriously, if you worship an ogre, that makes you a person who'd sell conscience for personal gain. It makes you a person who'd lap at the feet of a cruel tyrant for palaces and riches. Personally, I think that any deity worth actually worshipping would have higher regard for the atheist than for the theist...and highest of all for such people as the Unitarian Universalists and members of more liberal remixes of your own religions.

    If there were a God that should be worshipped rather than slain, conservative Muslims and Christians are further from the truth about him than anyone in the world.
     
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  9. shema

    shema Active Member

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    I see my thoughts are very entertaining to you. You reply to virtually everything I post.
    Surah 5:64
    And the Jews say the hand of Allah is tied up, their hands shall be shalkled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay both his hands are spread out. He expands as He pleases and what has been revealed to you from our lord will make many of them increase in ordinancy and unbelief. and we have put enmity and hatred among them until the day of resurection. whenever they kindle a fire of war Allah will put it out. and they strive to make mischief in the land and Allah does not have love for mischief maker.

    Psalms 14:1-3
    there is no one righteous not even one. there is now one who understands. no one seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless. There is now one who does good. not even one. The oposon of their vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood ruin and misery mark their ways and the way of peace they do not know...

    Romans 3:23
    For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

    so we can conclude that the Jews and muslims do not get along....

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no neans? We died to sin, how can we live in it any longer? ....4... We were therefore buried eith him through baptism into death in order that just as Christ raised from the tead through the glory of the father, we too have a new life...8...Now if we died with Christ we believe that we will also live with him...10...The death he died, he died to sin once and for all. but he life that he lived he lives to God.

    a little deeper..

    Romans 7:24
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner most being I delight in Gods law But I see another law at work. in the members of my body. waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of law to sin. at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! who will rescue me from this body of death? thanks be to God through Jesus Christ Our Lord!
     
  10. Ibrahim Al-Amin

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    To whom is your random rant addressed? Theists in general?

    I believe you are right. As a former atheist, I believe that everyone has an opportunity to reach "heaven," regardless of belief system. It's a matter of morals and ethics, and how you choose to live your life. I think the least "moral" people are the conservative Christians in the United States, but they're the first ones to claim that they have a guranteed ticket into heaven simply because they recognize, "Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour."

    Your condescensions are offensive, however, in that you assert moral superiority despite faith. No one is better than anyone. I believe Osama bin Laden is evil, and I believe Pat Robertson is his sidekick, yet their followers will insist upon their piety. In the end, all that matters is what kind of life we've led.
     
  11. Judgement Day

    Judgement Day Active Member

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    Pat Robertson...he really gets into my nerve.
     
  12. sky87

    sky87 Member

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    old thread, but wtv.. ever since i came on this site, which was yesterday, ive noticed the many unjustifiable attacks on muslims. there is this illogical notion of us being terrorists, and stupid, and what not. is it so hard to actually read up about a religion and then judge it? whatever happened to that good old saying "don't judge a book by its cover" ? reading over a lot of the posts, i thought a lot of the kids here were smart until i came upon these crazy hate statements against muslims! it disgusts me! i can keep on writing on and on, just giving you proofs from the qur'an to back up my statements, but im not going to do that. but i just want to get some points across: there are many farce sites on the internet, there have been many farce qur'ans made as well, wrong translations have been posted all over the net to mislead people. and another term, jihad, does NOT mean killing others! it does NOT mean hurthing others! let me point out that our prophet pbuh did not like wars, there is also a rule to follow during battles and wars, which is to not hurt any innocent persons, women, children, and even trees! and wars and battles were only applicable to the times of our prophet pbuh where muslims were treated brutally in mecca. the taliban and the al-qaeda have misinterpreted these terms, and i feel disgusted to even call them muslims after what they have done! and most muslims (like myself) do not agree with these extremist terrorist groups.
    the terrorist groups are bad i agree, and you call them uncivilized, and evil, but what about some of the west? the west is stabbing the middle east, but doing it slowly, and painfully, and almost "slyly" the taliban is all out in the open, but the west is doing secretly, killing innocent children and women in iraq, afghanistan, etc; now the west is going for iran. you don't always hear about the innocent people being killed EVERY single day, but i do, and i care, and it hurts me, these are my fellow innocent muslims being killed so brutally! ever seen the disgusting images at abu ghraib? have any of you ever tried to focus on the pain that us musilms are going through? ever heard of OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM, well its short form is: O.I.L. judge for yourself, and there is lots more, and it angers me to read all of these hate comments against muslims, before writing these statements please "think" before you do it hastily
     
  13. Ormiston

    Ormiston Well-Known Member

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    I was just about to take your side and then I got to the 2nd paragraph. Do you want to talk about religious views or political? My original thought was that many people are simply frustrated with the situation with Islamic Terrorists and that's why Muslims are getting a bad rap, but then you rationalized terrorism and murder. I'll tell you one way Muslims can get back in good grace with everyone: get rid of your leaders that preach violence and hate. And, believe me, the US could use a good dose of this as well. I doubt I'll ever vote for a Republican as long as I live.

    But, I guess I do take your side on a strictly religious/respectful side. People should be a bit more patient with the Muslims on the site and understand that they are frustrated as well.
     
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  14. sky87

    sky87 Member

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    i didn't "rationalize" terrorism and murder! i was trying to compare two sides, most of you only see how the west is being hurt by muslims (the september 11th attacks, and the hostages, etc; etc; and i agree that all of this is bad, so don't misinterpret my statements) but what about the muslims being hurt by the west? go read the middle eastern part of the news in your international newspaper, and you will see how many people get killed every single day because of the west! what about those horrid series of bombs on iraq? or the killings of innocent people in afghanistan? or how about the crazy attacks on muslims here in north america? my friend's scarf was pulled off by some idiot! mosques were vandalized, people throw hate comments, life is hard for us! we're known as terrorists, without any reasonable thought! nobody ever looks at things from our point of view, muslims don't believe in war, we believe that killing even one person is equivalent to killing all of mankind! we are good people, we believe in peace. and yes i agree, our leaders have given us a bad name, they have made their own religion, and fight in the name of islam, which is sickening, i hate seeing men with covered faces, holding guns in their hands aiming towards innocent people, saying that they are diong it in the name of islam! its ghastly, and i don't agree with it, please don't misconstrue my statements
     
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  15. Ormiston

    Ormiston Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry if I misunderstood you. I hate the whole situation. It does seem impossible to even wrap the mind about the whole scene. I work with a Christian Palestinian who has been running through the history of the Middle East with me over the last hundred years or so and it's so complicated with so many agendas. Many of us Americans truly believed that the war against Iraq was wrong but, at the very least, a democracy would be established. We take it for granted that this is, of course, the best thing for the people there when, in reality, I don't have the faintest clue what the best thing to do is. Everyone is afraid and frustrated and can't get the images of 9/11 out of our heads. The Islamic front the terrorists use combined with a general lack of understanding about Islamic people make it very easy for most people to simply lump all Muslims together and assume there is something inherently wrong with their beliefs. I don't feel this way. I think there are many things wrong with the entire region and the good Muslim citizens there are the victims.
     
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  16. finalfrogo

    finalfrogo Well-Known Member

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    Ugh... I know, I know. All they care about is Hell. Hell. Hell. Hell. :149:
     
  17. finalfrogo

    finalfrogo Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.
     
  18. ayani

    ayani member

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    which begs the question- if a faith is centered around fear of and rescue from Hell, what kind of goodness does it hope to offer the living *before* they die?

    a mere assurance that they won't be thrown into hell? where do good works , compassion, and love come in?
     
  19. sky87

    sky87 Member

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    ^ when you say a faith, which one are you referring to? if its islam, then i would like to respond. islam is not centered around "fear"! islam tells its followers to live a meaningful life, a life that accomplishes its purpose, we are to share a deep relationship with god, hence we are to pray 5 times a day, god has said to us in the qur'an that he loves us 80 times more than our mother (that would answer the love and compassion part of your question), and we are to turn to him not only in times of trouble, but all times, we are to remember him, and thank him for what he has given us. and you may be thinking, that we're just wasting our time! once you get used to it, its more of a meditation, a time of reflection, and that relationship that you share with him at that moment is priceless, its beautiful. And us muslims don't have "rigid" guidelines, once you look into our religion you will notice how easy those guidelines are to follow! i would know because i wasn't the best muslim two to three years ago. islam for me has provided me with the meaning of life, i like living a pure life, of course everyone sins, for example lying, back biting, etc; etc; but limiting these things will change you, and you will feel better about yourself, we are allowed pleasure and enjoyment, but to a good limit, we are not to involve ourself too much with the materialistic world. Us muslims believe greatly in unison, take our annual pilgrimage to mecca (known as hajj) as an example: everyone wears white, and the cloth is to be very simple, in order to show unison and equality amongst all, people of all colors, status, ethnicity, come together to show their love for god, and show their unison and equality, everyone is equal in the eyes of god and that is the way that we should live. and living this way not only gives us pleasure in this life, but it also gives us assurance for the next life. hope that answers your question gracie :)
     
  20. ayani

    ayani member

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    sky- i was refering to certain christians.

    as i understand islam, it is not at all built around fear of hell and salvation in the way that those christian groups are.

    so don't worry!
     
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