Mother Teresa made a 'saint'!

[metis]

Thanks for the link. Now, remembering that the broader context here is one of sainthood, what are your conclusions based on that article?

No doubt there are some questions about some choices she appears to have made, but as I have mentioned before, I tend to take a more panoramic view versus a nit-picking one. If one nit-picks me, hey they might even find one small fault that I hypothetically might have. Nah!


BTW, let me just add that I don't get into the issue of "sainthood" with the exception that holding up a person as being an inspiration can help motivate people to try and do better, and there have been people in my life who have very much inspired me, such as Gandhi, Cesar Chavez, Robert Kennedy, an old girlfriend, my wife, etc. To me, they were "saints" of a sort because of their influence on me, but they most assuredly were not perfect people, whatever that is.

Teresa certainly was not a perfect person, but who is? As we see figures die, there will always be those who try and tear them down, correctly or not. I really don't like that approach except for that which is academic.

 

[Jainarayan]

Well, since you seem to think that baptism is enough to make a person a Christian, it's understandable that you also think it amounts to "forced conversion." To me, baptism is only part of the process and is meaningless without faith, repentance and a commitment to Jesus Christ.

I don't think anything of the kind. I'm stating what I knew as a former Catholic. But I do think it's reprehensible to have a ritual of another faith performed on another person without their informed consent. So with your last sentence I whole-heartedly agree.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't think anything of the kind. I'm stating what I knew as a former Catholic.

I apologize if I appeared to be putting words in your mouth, but your post that I initially responded to made it seem like you thought that it was the act of Christian baptism that made a person Christian. This may very well be what Catholicism teaches, but I'm wondering if someone who is baptized a Christian without his consent is, in fact, a Christian in God's eyes.

But I do think it's reprehensible to have a ritual of another faith performed on another person without their informed consent. So with your last sentence I whole-heartedly agree.

So what exactly do you believe an unauthorized ritual would actually accomplish? I realize you're no longer Catholic, but you were probably baptized in the Catholic Church. Do you think the Christian God would say you are a Christian now, or a Hindu?

 

[Jainarayan]

but I'm wondering if someone who is baptized a Christian without his consent is, in fact, a Christian in God's eyes.

It depends on whether the person believes in the Christian God. I don't think rituals and words make a person anything, without belief and commitment.

So what exactly do you believe an unauthorized ritual would actually accomplish?

Nothing, except a violation of the person's rights.

Do you think the Christian God would say you are a Christian now, or a Hindu?

It's irrelevant to me. If the Christian God exists, to me he's just another deity in another pantheon. Humans love (and need) labels and names, and categories. I don't think Vishnu thinks of me as 'Hindu', because the names 'Christian', 'Hindu' are just labels and social constructs. You simply worship whom you worship, and someone assigns you a label.

 

[Katzpur]

It depends on whether the person believes in the Christian God. I don't think rituals and words make a person anything, without belief and commitment.

Agreed.

Nothing, except a violation of the person's rights.

I guess this is what I'm failing to understand. What rights specifically are being violated? How is the person's life actually affected by this supposed violation of his rights? What damage is done by a meaningless ritual?

It's irrelevant to me. If the Christian God exists, to me he's just another deity in another pantheon. Humans love (and need) labels and names, and categories. I don't think Vishnu thinks of me as 'Hindu', because the names 'Christian', 'Hindu' are just labels and social constructs. You simply worship whom you worship, and someone assigns you a label.

I can go along with that to some extent. I would have to say that if Vishnu exists, he(?) may not think of you as a Hindu, but would know that you worship him and not the Christian God. Since that is the case, it seems to me that just as the words "Hindu" and "Christians" are merely social constructs, the rituals associated with the faith are completely meaningless unless accepted by the person. I don't see how something that is truly meaningless and has no power whatsoever can violate a person's rights.

(Wow! I just noticed the title of this thread. We're pretty far off topic, aren't we? )

 

[Jainarayan]

I don't see how something that is truly meaningless and has no power whatsoever can violate a person's rights.

Maybe violate is too strong a word, but at the very least we're talking extreme disrespect. Whether it's meaningless or not, if I have an antipathy towards Christianity, it's an insult to me as a person, that someone thinks they know what's best for me, by their beliefs. Not to mention performing the ritual when I'm in a state in which I cannot protest. A silly analogy is if someone slips pureed broccoli (a substance I loathe and detest) into my soup without my knowing, that's disrespectful. I simply feel that if anyone is subjected to something that would ordinarily be against their will or their own beliefs is at the very least disrespectful and maybe condescending. Westerners tend to do that with Third Worlders. I don't know if India is considered Third World, maybe Second World? Indians! represent and help me out here!

When I was in the hospital for lumbar surgery, a pastor came into my room, holding a bible, asking if I'd like to pray. I politely said no thank you and smiled. Maybe the burly bearded guy in the bed wearing a Thor's Hammer (it was in my Heathen Days®) might have tipped him off before he even asked, that the answer would be "no". He smiled and said "OK, if you need anything please let us know" to which I replied thank you. If, however, I was in a worse state, and someone performed the 'anointing of the sick' on me I'd have an unholy fit if I found out.

 

[Katzpur]

Whether it's meaningless or not, if I have an antipathy towards Christianity, it's an insult to me as a person, that someone thinks they know what's best for me, by their beliefs.

I can understand that.

When I was in the hospital for lumbar surgery, a pastor came into my room, holding a bible, asking if I'd like to pray. I politely said no thank you and smiled. Maybe the burly bearded guy in the bed wearing a Thor's Hammer (it was in my Heathen Days®) might have tipped him off before he even asked, that the answer would be "no". He smiled and said "OK, if you need anything please let us know" to which I replied thank you. If, however, I was in a worse state, and someone performed the 'anointing of the sick' on me I'd have an unholy fit if I found out.

(Your avatar is misleading. I hadn't exactly pictured you as a burly bearded guy. )

 

[Aupmanyav]

Tell me, what did those destitute and illiterate persons, many of them not even mentally sound, who were to die days or hours later and who were made Christians by Teresa understood about Christianity or Jesus? It was just sadism to do that.

 

[ronandcarol]

I might never be as caring and giving to the poor like Mother Teresa was but my Pastor had a sermon on saints a couple of Sundays ago and I was happy to hear that I was a saint also. Scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the biblical description and calling of the saints. And I don't need to acknowledged by the Pope either, I am a saint in Jesus Christ.

ronandcarol