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Mormon or Christians?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by TheGreaterGame, Jun 6, 2005.

  1. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    James is writing to a people who say . . . all we have to do is belive . . . just have a "abstract knowledge of Christ" and we will be saved. James wants to disarm these people by letting them know that "demons have a faith like that . . . and they are going to hell" . . . the issue at hand is that genunine faith will give a person a want to help people in need . . . a will to act when their is a need. Romans 1:17 says that we are justified by faith. Galatians 3 makes the same arguement, Hebrews 11 makes the same arguement . . . we are saved by faith. Paul reconciles the two ideas, "works and faith" in Galatians chapter 5, when he writes . . . "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working in love."

    Does your faith work?
     
  2. Stick of Joseph

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    Actually there were many other witnesses to the plates other than Joseph Smith, for example Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris,Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith Sen., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith. There is also an account of Professor Charles Anthon of New York City, and was one who was celebrated for his literary attainments. He stated that the translation of the characters was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated. He studied the characters and said that they were egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and said they were true characters. His findings were then cross checked by a Dr. Mitchel who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said. Both these men were non Mormon. The church still has the original manuscripts and studies them often at BYU.

    As for never finding artifacts from the Book of Mormons time is absurd. There are BYU led archeological digs constantly down in central America. We have museums of artifacts that Carbon date to the exact time the events in the Book of Mormon occurred. Check yourself on the BYU website. No one is baffled, its quite clear to every archeologist that the citys found date back to that exact time.

    This is the truth . . . and it is with dispute.
     
  3. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    When asked in a letter about the "Reformed Egyptian Hyroglypic" . . . Professer Anthon noted in a letter

    " the paparyi looked to be a part of a hoax"

    Also the witnesses . . . all except a few of them denied that the claims ever happened.

    BYU Professors have not made one single find that proves the existane of the Anchient Nephite or Lamenite.

    The Smithsonaian concluded that the Native American descends from the North East Asia, not from the land of Israel or from a semetic blood line. These are the facts and they are without dispute.
     
  4. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    The testimony of the three witnesses, which appear at the front of the Book of Mormon (Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris) declares that “An angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engraving thereon. ”
    It is quite noteworthy that Martin Harris denied that he had actually seen the plates with his “naked eyes.” In fact, when pressed, he stated, “No, I saw them with a spiritual eye” (Recollections of John H. Gilbert, 1892, Typescript, BYU, 5–6).
    The Mormons are loath to admit that all three of these witnesses later apostatized from the Mormon faith and were described in most unflattering terms (“counterfeiters, thieves, [and] liars”) by their Mormon contemporaries (cf. Senate Document 189, February 15, 1841, 6–9).
    A careful check of early Mormon literature also reveals that Joseph Smith wrote prophecies and articles against the character of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, which in itself renders their testimony suspect (cf. Doctrine and Covenants, 3:12; 10:7; History of the Church; 3:228, 3:232).
    Mormons try to cover this historical predicament by saying that two of the three witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were rebaptized into Mormonism. What they fail to reveal is more significant: The Times and Seasons (2:482) published that Oliver Cowdery denied his Book of Mormon testimony. He spent several years as a baptized Methodist before his rebaptism into Mormonism. Martin Harris, likewise, has suspicious circumstances surrounding his rebaptism. He denied the teachings of Brigham Young after rebaptism and was banned from preaching by Young because of their differences. David Whitmer changed the details of his testimony concerning the angel with the golden plates to say that it was a vision and not an actual visitation by an angelic person (An Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 32). Certainly testimony from such unstable personalities is dubious at best.

    Source Walter Martins "Kingdom of the Cults"
     
  5. Stick of Joseph

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    Professor Anthon was given the hyroglphic not through a letter of on an ancient slab, he was given it through scetches of the hyroglphics and the interpretation. He then gave Martin Harris a certificate, certifying that they were true characters, and that it was an accurate translation. He may have thought it was a hoax at first but under inspection the characters were proved to be authentic.

    In part what you have said about some of the witnesses is true. Some left the church to other branches, but most returned none however at there death bed swore that they had actually physically seen the Book of Mormon. Some denied Joseph Smith was a prophet, but according to LDS History and the LDS library there is no such account of any witness denying that he saw the plates.
    As for no sematic blood. The people who made these claims are all evolutionary scientists who believe that the land bridge from asia to Alaska, back in the last ice age, brought people to this continent. You can't believe that before the earth was created( in the biblical sense) there were people who came to the American continent.
    As for your cites I have read it, including the senate document and would like not that the people who made these claims were not mormons but anti mormons, and since the President and governors of each prosecuting states have apologized for there persecution.
    All these cites are anti-Mormon literature and in no way fall into actual history. As for the verses you gave, I suggest you read them for yourself. In no way does it even fall into this subject. The verses simply say, keep the Book of Mormon hidden away for Satan has raised men who would take it. I dont see how that ties into Joseph contradicting anything. You should read the actual Book of Mormon, the testimony of the witnesses, and the church history book, before you read the lies found in the anti stuff. You cant weigh truth with the lies without both accounts known.
     
  6. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    I have read the Mormon position, from there vantage point. And using rules of logic, observation, history, eye-witness accounts . . . with out a doubt Mormonism falls short in all categories. You can feel how ever you want too . . . that's always the weakest arguement . . . but the facts prove Mormonism to non- Christian and hence, UnOrthodox.
     
  7. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    You just danced around and never dealt with it. Jesus never said you must be born again of the Spirit and symbolically washed in water, He said you MUST be born of water and Spirit. Also, I noticed you just decided to ignore 1 Peter.

    True but also; "Not everyone who cries 'Lor, Lord' will be saved".

    Jesus death made Baptism possible.

    How abotu reading Ephesians 2: 8-10. Then, after tha, read James 2: 24 and tell me what you think of it.

    Of course. We ar saved by God's grace working through our Faith and Love. I have no problem with that. And if you claim that works would necessarily mean that God would somehow be obligated, then also the same with Faith--if works aren't necessary, neither is Faith.
     
  8. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    1) The Bible is erred and it was never a part of Christian theology that a Christian must accept the Bible as infallible. The Catholic church insisted this in 1578 after it added the book of Revelation to the Bible to stamp out the opportunity for reformers to claim other books should be added, but it would be the acme of foolishness to insist that the Catholic church is in any way affiliated with Christ's gospel. The Bible was opver fifteen hundred years in the making, and the 66 books that are now in there are there as a result of unauthorized people voting on which books they wanted in there. Their inclusion was based only on the probability of their authenticity. Whether or not an extant book was authentic was the only criterion, no one said 66 was the cap until reformers started coming up with other books and the Catholics perceived a threat to their dominion.

    2) I'm curious where you found the idea that Christ is a "sub-God." The Book of Mormon says, "Christ, the Eternal Father of Heaven and Earth." He is referred to as God on numerous ocassions. Who told you this stupid "sub-God" stuff?

    3) Not true. Those principles and ordinances lead to sanctification, but justification comes by Faith, Repentance, Baptism and the reception of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, just like it says in the Bible. You're way off there.

    You have disproven nothing except for your own inferred claim that you understand what we teach. You only understand the lies that other anti-Mormon hate mongers feed you. If you have a question about what we believe ask us, not someone bent on our downfall (where does contention come from?).
     
  9. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Why is this dude so gung-ho against mormonism? Don't you have anything better to do with your time than try to tear down the faith of other people. This claim that it's an outreach and not a destructive offensive is ludicrous. No one who loves the truth would spend so much time looking for ammunition against one faith. You seem to spend a ridiculous amount of time looking for people who hate us to make your argument stronger. Here's an idea: do what I do. Use the Bile as your reference and study it out objectively rather than derive a conclusion from that filth that is breast-fed you.
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Yep - a whole lot of Bile in that recommendation, but at least it's honest.
     
  11. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Stupid keyboard. The 'b' is stuck. Bible. And point out what you believe to be a false report if such is the nature of your inference.
     
  12. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    YOU are saying that goshdarnit! He is writing to YOU. He gives EXAMPLES of people with GREAT Faith (more than jsut abstract knowledge) i.e. ABRAHAM and yet he was justified by his works. Your twisting is amazing.

    Exactly! Faith working in love! Not Faith alone, Faith with love. Otherwise, the Faith is useless.
     
  13. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    You ask a question, you get a response . . .

    1st Timothy 4:1,

    "Now the Spirit expressely says that in latter times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to decietful sprits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinance from food that God created to be recieved with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is recieved with thanksgiving for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer."

    Galatians 1:6-9,

    "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distor the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you. let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let them him be accursed."

    1st Timothy 4:1-4

    "I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the Word; be ready in season; reprove,rebuke, and exort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themsevel teachter to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the turh and wander off into myths."

    Matthew 24:23

    "Then if anyone says to you, 'look, here is the Christ! or There He is! do not belive it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonder, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

    The Apostle Paul who is writing on behalf of Jesus Christ . . .
    Commands me to debunk those who say they are of the faith. And the risen Savior tells me not to believe those who will come and say . . .

    "Hey. I saw Jesus while I was over in the woods . . . and He told me that He's got some golden plates He wants me to take care of for Him. And He wants me to reinstitute his Church because its been missing for 2,000 years."

    No Jesus would say . . . do not believe them . . . besides they won't decieve the elect of God anyway.
     
  14. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    I can't help it that your history is tainted. That Joespeh Smith, jr-- the seer, is the person in whom your faith lives and dies. My faith is not dependant on a 15 year old boy who told tall tales. . . or in a work of theological fiction such as "Manuscript Found" other wise known as "The Book of Mormon." My faith is dependant upon Jesus alone . . . not in a prophet, not in temples made by hands, not in the words of wisdom, not in baptism . . . but by faith in Christ alone.
     
  15. Stick of Joseph

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    I dont know how to feal. I feal as though I should write back to your post, but I get the feeling you wouldnt believe me if I told you. All I can now say is that you should search and study the bible and find out for yourself what Christ is really saying. I think if you should read the the Book of Mormon, Doctorine and Covenants, and the Joseph Smith history to see our side. What could it hurt. You cant weigh truth against lies without both the truth and the lie. Dont simply read anti matierial and believe it to be truth. The goal of the church is not to disprove anothers beliefs, but to prove its own.
    Dont be blinded by good intentions or preconceived notions of what you think is the truth.

    The Church is true, Joseph Smith was a true Prophet ordainded by God, and Gordan B. Hinkley is the prophet today. These things I know to be true. I am not deceived, because the spirit of God as born witness to me of the truthfullness of it. This is my testimony.
    I hope you someday change your opinion on my beliefs.
     
  16. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

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    Your heart has decieved your mind, my friend. The evidence of the Bible declares that Mormonism, Joseph Smith, and all other prophets of the LDS Church are- false, regardless of how your heart feels. If I wake up tommarow and feel as though "the Law of Gravity" does not apply to me anymore . . . it does not excuse the reality of the situation which is, I'm still bound by the "Law of Gravity" . . . and so it is with the Mormon Religion and the Truth that is revealed in the bible.
     
  17. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you. My faith rests on the merits of Christ. As the Book of Mormon says: there is only one name given under heaven by which man may be saved, Jesus Christ. Now you make many accusations, but your proof is only more accusations. Please provide me with Bible verses (and only Bible verses) that substantiate this claim of yours about some declaration from the Bible that Mormons are wrong. Feel free to interpret these verses how you wish, but every false interpretation will be pointed out and proven wrong.
     
  18. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Now tell me where these say anything about Mormons. If you feel they are talking about us then explain exactly how you arrive at this conclusion. Anyone can pull a scripture about apostasy out of the Bible and say, "They're talking about you!" but it's quite a different story to be right about that.
     
  19. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    everyones history is tainted... :biglaugh:

    wa:do
     
  20. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Where's TheGreaterGame?
     
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