1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Mormon or Christians?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by TheGreaterGame, Jun 6, 2005.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    Oy vey.... let me waste 5 minutes of my life to prove you wrong.... I'm sure that you'll be apologetic.:rolleyes:
    First, a quote from the Catechism to define the terms used:
    2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

    Although it can be said that the post Vatican II church has a more inclusive tone, an educated look at RCC theology will show the errors of the position that "their are no more heretics".

    The fact the we now refer to Protestants as our "separated brethren" should get you to ask one question: What separates them? Geography? No..... it is your HERESY and SCHISM.

    I'd also like to point out that UD referred to sola fide as a heretical doctrine.... you twisted that up to point out your erroneous notion that there are no more heretics..... nonesense....... anyone that follows a heretical doctrine IS A HERETIC.

    Here endeth the lesson.
     
  2. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    353
    Ratings:
    +28
    How can a person be a " . . . brother" and be a heretic?

    Also, a little Inclusivism leads to a lot of heresy
     
  3. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    308
    Ratings:
    +31
    If you cannot figure that out, you are lost. We would look at ALL human beings as our brothers and sisters, even atheists. So surely a Christian who, while having many erroneous beliefs, still holds Jesus as the second person in the Trinity, would be considere a brother. But that's fine. If you want to believe you know Catholic Doctrine better than Catholics, go ahead!
     
  4. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    15,370
    Ratings:
    +1,653
    yup... you know Mormon Doctine better than the Mormons and you know Catholic Docterine better than the Catholics... :biglaugh:

    wa:do
     
  5. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

    Joined:
    May 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,066
    Ratings:
    +66
    Mormons and Evangelical Christians do have clear differences in regards to what they believe. i applaud Mormons for their dedication in spreading their message and their committment to strong family values, but I don't believe that Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or anyone else after them for that matter, were prophets and received "new revelations" from God, that deviated from the Holy Bible and fostered a need to author a seperate book (Book of Mormon) in addition to God's Holy Word. The lifestyles of the two early pioneers of the movement were questionable at best, with their acceptance of poligomy as being blessed or approved by God, among other things. I don't accept the belief that many Mormons have that Jesus's blood sacrifice for the sins of man only atoned for some sin, but not all and that one can atone for those sins that were not redeemed by Jesus by either spilling of one's blood or that of another living creature and also by one's works. God's gives us new insight and discerment through the scripture in His Holy Word from Genesis to Revelations, but not any new revelations that trascend what's already in the Bible. :)
     
  6. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,762
    Ratings:
    +604
    Why not? Hasn't He always in the past revealed his will to mankind through his chosen profets? I think it's weirder to believe that now all of sudden He has just completely left us to fend for ourselves.
    It doesn't deviate from the Bible or contradict it in any way. It simply clearifies some of the things that have been lost or altered.

    Also in Gen 16:1-11 God commands Abraham to take a second wife.
    Gen 29: 23, 28; 30:4 are about Jacob's plurality
    Ex 21:10 further allows polygamy.
    Mormon teachings have polygamy to be okay if it is commanded by God (as in these cases) and wholly unnacceptable if it is not commanded by god. Their acceptance of it does not show anything wrong with the religion, as these and many other biblical quotes also support it.
     
  7. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    308
    Ratings:
    +31
    Why would it be weird that after His Son redeemed that world that maybe things would change? But you are right, we are not alone--we have the Church.
     
  8. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    15,370
    Ratings:
    +1,653
    Which Church?
    you have hundreds of flavors to choose from.... Each one saying that the rest are wrong and only they are really right...
    so which Church?

    wa:do
     
  9. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    308
    Ratings:
    +31
    Well assuming we are talking about Christian Churches (due to the topic title) the only Church that even seriously claims to have Authority is the Catholic Church. All Protestant churches claim they go by the Bible alone, which leads to... the thousands of protestant denominations there are now. There are of course Orthodox Churches but that is a different debate. Either way, my point was that Jesus did not leave us alone as some have asserted.
     
  10. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

    Joined:
    May 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,066
    Ratings:
    +66
    He didn't leave us to fend for ourselves. That's why we have the Holy Word of God through the Bible (Genesis (beginning)-Revelations (end). I don't believe God gave some 19th century rebel rouser a "new revelation" that extended beyond the 66 books of the Holy Bible. Does God gives us insight and discernment? Absolutely. But not anything that trascends what was in His Holy Word. Regarding the issue of polygamy, In Genesis 16:1-11, God did not command Abraham to take a second wife. You are distorting the Word. Because of Abraham and Sarah's impatience regarding her conception, Sarah instructed Abraham to sleep with Hagar, their servant. That is what that passage covers, not that God in anyway instructed Abraham to take on a second wife. Even though polygamy was widely acceptable during those times, does not make it acceptable in the 21st century, both legally and spiritually. :)
     
  11. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    353
    Ratings:
    +28
    I think you did a good job explaining that. But something I want to hit on once more. The Bible never paints a false picture of someones character. The fact that Abraham commited a violation of his marriage by having sex with another woman- just shows how sinful even he was. The bible never condones these actions, what he did was sin. The bible never tries to excuse that. And the result of that sin was a broken woman "Hagar" and an unwanted son, "Ishmael". The conclusion, sin has consequences.
     
  12. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    353
    Ratings:
    +28
    Do me a favor. Try to make some sense of what you say. The only way anyone is going to heaven according to Jesus is "to be born again" . . . not by works, not by temple rites, not by baptism, not by mother and father, not by being a good person, . . . only by being born again. John 3:3

    If your not born again . . . your not born of the Spirit of God . . . to not be born of the Spirit of God is to be . . . a child of the devil.

    If you cannot explain the biblical way of salvation . . . I doubt your salvation . . . and so should you . . .
     
  13. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    308
    Ratings:
    +31
    Ah, born again, eh? I think you just sorta "left out" that part where it says born again of WATER and spirit. John 3: 5

    I peter 3: 20 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    Huh, that's funny. Baptism saves me...

    Oh, and yeah, Matthew 25: 31-44

    "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
    and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me. Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

    Hmm thats interesting...


    Romans 2: 5-8

    By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works.Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness

    And then of course there is that little Biblical passage I love to quote, James 2: 24


    "You see that we are justified by works and not by Faith alone"

    So, yeah, I would say that works and Baptismal rites are pretty important. Wouldn't you?
     
  14. Stick of Joseph

    Joined:
    May 4, 2005
    Messages:
    76
    Ratings:
    +11
    Genesis 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

    I dont think we could put it any clearer. Abraham had 2 wives. We are straying from the subject though. Let me voice my opinion as a Latter Day Saint (Mormon). In our first article of faith it states "We believe in God the eternal father, in his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. We dont put one above the other.
    We believe that of coarse due to the errors of man that the bible is not perfect. It has been translated and retranslated many times over.
    I am a Christian no matter what any one may say I worship Christ, he took upon himself my sin so that I could be saved. If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints isnt true, then it will leave the earth. If it is true than there is nothing anyone can say or do to stop Gods church from progressing.
     
  15. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    308
    Ratings:
    +31
    Yes, and Abraham SINNED. That was not something God commanded.

    And either way, are you defending polygamy?
     
  16. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

    Joined:
    May 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,066
    Ratings:
    +66
    He did not take Hagar as a wife in a literal sense through a formal ceremony, but took her as a mistress at Sarai's urging. This, as someone previously noted in error, was not ordained by God, but was blatant disobedience to the promise that God made to both Abraham and Sarai. I am not questioning your faith and and personal relationship with God through Christ. The original scriptures have been translated in several languages, but as I compare different text (King James vs. New International, among others), I look for deviation from the context of the message or scriptural passage, not whether the translated version is written in a more modern or reader-friendly fashion. It is the message that I am in looking for in terms of it's consistency. If you believe in the Holy Spirit, which I am sure you do, He gives us discernment related to God's truth, which was revealed in His Holy Word. 1 Peter 1:24-25 and 2 Timothy 3:16,17 gives us more insight in regards to God's Word. I just have a problem believing that God provided a very questionable figure (Joseph Smith) in the 19th century additional revelation that warranted a separate book from the Bible as an additional authoritative source. It is highly questionable in my opinion. :)
     
  17. Stick of Joseph

    Joined:
    May 4, 2005
    Messages:
    76
    Ratings:
    +11
    Abrams relationship with Hagar was never mentioned in the scripture as that of a "mistress" as you contend, but as a wife. It is also interesting to note that this "mistress" who was indeed Abrams wife, "not ordained by God, but was blatant disobedience" as you also contend, was visited by an angel of the Lord. I don't know about you, but that doesn't happen to too many people I know, much less a "mistress" of the Lord's prophet, again as you contend.
    God made his promises to Abram in Chapter 17: 2-7. God then in 17:16 promised Sarah to be the "mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her." Then in 19 promised of their union, Isaac. Remember though that God promised Hagar in Chapter 16:10 a numberless posterity. God also made promises to Hagar that are quite explicit through his holy angel.
    Pretty great stuff, and not really a subject of debate.
    As far as the Book of Mormon is concerned as "an additional authoritative source" remember that the books that were canonized by the Roman Catholic Church and accepted by all Christendom through the ages were accepted as authoritative sources by vote. Many many books referred to by these "authoritative sources" have not been included in the King James version or any translation, or modern language version.
    The Book of Mormon is simply a historical religious record of Gods dealing with his people who inhabited this (the American) continent from about 600 BC to 400 AD. Joseph Smith is no more "questionable" than was Martin Luther, John Wesley, Roger Williams or any other religionist of their day. You will remember that even the Savior was thought to be a heretic by the learned scholars (Scribes and Pharisees) of his day. Whether you believe Joseph Smith and indeed Gordon B. Hinkley was or is a prophet is of little consequence to the gospel rolling forth to cover the earth. I think it incumbent upon all true searchers of truth to study, pray and make sure we are on the Lord's side, not blinded by good intentions or preconceived notions of what we think is the truth.

    "Search, ponder, and pray."
    "By their fruits ye shall know them."
    My prayers are with you.
     
  18. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    353
    Ratings:
    +28
    The bible has over 6,000 original manuscripts in hebrew, greek, and aramaic. The book of Mormon does not have a single original manuscript . . . all they have is the word of one man . . . "Joeseph Smith." The beautiful thing about the bible is that it is historicly accurate. Arceaologists use the bible to track artiefacts. When a group of concearned Christians petitioned the Smithsonaian Institute to see if the Book of Mormon could be aunthinticated or wither or not any one has ever used the book of Mormon for any North American digs . . . and they said "No." BYU Archeaologist professors have been baffled for years in there search for the lost cities of the Nephites and Lamenites . . . but the truth is its all a hoax. The truth lies in the mind of a baptist minister known as Soloman Spaulding. Spaulding wrote theological fiction . . . and entitled a book called "Manuscript Found" . . . who had the ability to nab such a work and pawn it off as "inspired revelation" . . . Joseph Smith and a couple of his counterparts. This is the truth . . . and it is with dispute.

    May God open the eyes of those who are blind. Amen.
     
  19. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    353
    Ratings:
    +28
    What about the theif on the cross . . . was he baptized? So what then does Jesus mean when He tells Nicodemas that he must be born again . . . of water and of the Spirit.

    The first rule of hermeneutics . . . is context, context, context. John the Baptist was baptizing people in the wilderness . . . "Make straight the way of the Lord" . . . John is the voice of this preamble before Jesus starts His ministry . . . telling the people . . . get ready . . . get ready . . . the time is coming . . . the time is near . . .

    John says in chapter 1:26, "I baptize with water, but among you stands one you do not know, even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to tie." John only baptizes with water . . . .

    What is John's Baptism? Paul answers what it is Acts 19:3-5, " And he said, 'into what baptism were you baptized? They said, 'into John's baptism.' And Paul said, 'John baptized you with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to belive in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus"

    John's water baptism is a symbol of repentance and belief and Jesus refers to water in John 3:5 to mean you must 'repent from you sins and believe' . . . but you also must be born of the Spirit.

    Romans 10:9-10 tell us what we must do to be saved, "Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and belive with your heart that God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

    If Baptism saved people Jesus died for nothing, because it would mean that salvation was up to you going down to the river and getting dunked.

    But Epheisians 2:8-9 say that "your saved by grace alone through faith and not of your own doing; it is the gift of God not as a result of works lest you boast."

    You being saved is not up to you and if it were it would leave you room to boast and God says, "that's not going to happen, you get zero credit for your salvation . . . its a gift from me not a work from you.
     
  20. TheGreaterGame

    TheGreaterGame Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    353
    Ratings:
    +28
    Might makes right . . . is that your argument. If this is the case . . . Islam's claim to be the only true faith would supercede your own . . . because after all the Muslim religion boasts a number 12 times the size of Mormonism. Maybe you should think about converting, because after all "Might Makes Right"
     
Loading...